# I will never, ever understand my fellow man. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 2, 2006, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993 "2006-10-02T16:38:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/181 "2006-10-04T01:13:18Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > For the vast majority of people, the consequences of not having a smoke alarm in the house is nil. But most people have them, anyway. And the only downside of a smoke alarm is the cost very unlike a gun. You understand that’s a really lame analogy to counter with, I’m sure. > [@catsix](#): > > I was under the impression that suicide followed by homicide topped the list of firearms deaths. Do you have a cite? I never said they didn’t. I said accidental deaths outnumbered self-defence/stopping a crime deaths. The first cite I quickly find is only for Wisconsin. People can argue that it’s wildly unrepresentitve if they like but it’s apparently one of the few that includes non-fatal hospitalizations: ```auto TABLE 1. Number, percentage, and rate * of firearm-related injury hospitalizations and deaths, by intent of injury -- Wisconsin, 1994 ==================================================================================================== Nonfatal hospitalizations Deaths Total ------------------- ------------------- -------------------- Intent of injury No. (%) Rate No. (%) Rate No. (%) Rate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unintentional 124 ( 24) 2.4 31 ( 6) 0.6 155 ( 15) 3.0 Assault 303 ( 59) 6.0 142 ( 28) 2.8 445 ( 44) 8.8 Suicide/attempted suicide 44 ( 8) 0.9 329 ( 64) 6.5 373 ( 36) 7.4 Unknown intention 41 ( 8) 0.9 3 ( <1) <0.1 44 ( 4) 0.9 Legal intervention 4 ( <1) <0.1 6 ( 1) 0.1 10 ( 1) 0.2 Total 516 (100) 10.2 511 (100) 10.1 1027 (100) 20.3 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Per 100,000 population. ==================================================================================================== ``` > **[Firearm-Related Deaths and Hospitalizations -- Wisconsin, 1994](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00043509.htm)** Maybe I’m misreading but it looks like “unintentional” is 15 times the “legal intervention”. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/182 "2006-10-04T01:16:57Z")
> [@](#): > > **CarnalK** said: > I never said they didn’t. I said accidental deaths outnumbered self-defence/stopping a crime deaths. And yet even by the most conservative of estimates (Kellerman), defensive gun uses top 200,000 a year. Remember, nobody has to die, or even be injured, when a gun is used in self defense. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/183 "2006-10-04T01:22:35Z")
There’ve been more detailed studies than looking at Wisconsin hospitalization rates, look [here](http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck1.html) if interested. The vast majority of defensive gun uses don’t involve the hospitalization of anyone. If you restrict your analysis of utility to that small subset, then they come out looking more useless than they are. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/184 "2006-10-04T01:24:16Z")
[QUOTE=CarnalK] And the only downside of a smoke alarm is the cost very unlike a gun. You understand that’s a really lame analogy to counter with, I’m sure. [/QUOTE] Um, no. It’s an excellent analogy. Do you have a smoke alarm? Yes? Why? Are you paranoid? Are you planning on having a fire? Do you wear a seatbelt? Yes? Why? Are you paranoid? Are you planning on having an accident? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/185 "2006-10-04T01:25:05Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > In an ideal scenario, a gun can prevent a crime without being used. You’re attempting to criticize the defensive usefulness of guns - and you’re only using the undesirable, minority case - that it’s used, and that it’s used to kill - in analyzing their usefulness. Defensive gun uses without a shooting are, indeed, hard to quantify, but it certainly doesn’t make them invalid. Whoopdidoo for ideal scenarios. My point still stands you can’t measure these unquantifiable goods anymore than I can support the unquantifiable bads. It’s a wash. > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I guess all my guns are defective, then. Our home is very safe. I’m sure it’s plenty safe. It would be safer without the guns, of course. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/186 "2006-10-04T01:27:20Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Remember, nobody has to die, or even be injured, when a gun is used in self defense. Nobody has to die when a gun is used in an assault, either. Got a conservative estimate on that? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/187 "2006-10-04T01:27:54Z")
Oh, and **CarnalK** , I couldn’t give a rat’s ass about guns and crime statistics. I don’t care if guns increase crime or decrease crime. I suspect the latter is true, but like I said, I really don’t care. I am armed, and will remain armed. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/188 "2006-10-04T01:30:35Z")
Own all the guns you like, just don’t try to justify it with huge pile of bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/189 "2006-10-04T01:30:36Z")
[QUOTE=CarnalK] I’m sure it’s plenty safe. It would be safer without the guns, of course. [/QUOTE] True. But only for the BG who decides to beak into our house while we’re home. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/190 "2006-10-04T01:31:51Z")
[QUOTE=CarnalK] Whoopdidoo for ideal scenarios. My point still stands you can’t measure these unquantifiable goods anymore than I can support the unquantifiable bads. It’s a wash. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure what the formal name of this fallacy is - anyone want to help out? You’re essentially saying that if something isn’t precisely quantifiable, then it’s just as likely as any other thing that isn’t precisely quantifiable. Since precise numbers of DGUs can’t be measured, then it’s just as likely that magical fairies intervened to prevent as many crimes, right? No, what you’re saying is that the negative effect of the presence of guns counts, because those effects are far more likely to be quantifiable, and yet the positive ones don’t count, because they’re more difficult to quantify. That link I posted earlier is of a peer-reviewed (I think, if I have the right one) study using valid scientific methods to give reasonable estimates on defensive gun uses. You can’t simply throw that out and declare you’re the winner. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/191 "2006-10-04T01:33:44Z")
[QUOTE=CarnalK] Own all the guns you like, just don’t try to justify it with huge pile of bullshit. [/QUOTE] Justify? I don’t care if (statistically speaking) guns make our home \*more \* dangerous or \*less \* dangerous. I don’t if guns \*increase \* crime or \*decrease \* crime. I do not justify being armed based on statistics. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/192 "2006-10-04T01:36:03Z")
And for what it’s worth, guns don’t get up on their own and go shoot people, intentionally or unintentionally. It seems like we’re phrasing our arguments in such a way that the guns are the actors, rather than the people. As for unintentional gun deaths, “accidental” gun deaths very rarely happen. Guns are very precise machines built with redundant safety mechanisms. No, “negligent” gun deaths are far more common. You cannot kill someone unintentionally without violating one of the four fundamental rules of gun safety. Negligent use of dangerous things is an unfortunate fact of life - but we don’t speak about drunk drivers in terms of the car being at fault for killing people, for example. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/193 "2006-10-04T01:42:48Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > You’re essentially saying that if something isn’t precisely quantifiable, then it’s just as likely as any other thing that isn’t precisely quantifiable. Since precise numbers of DGUs can’t be measured, then it’s just as likely that magical fairies intervened to prevent as many crimes, right? You’re making the logical fallacy of “not getting it”. I’m saying your hypothetical benefits are just as valid as my hypothetical harms. If I wave my gun around to clear up a traffic jam, nobody is hurt but it sure doesn’t help society. Why are we all supposed to accept that all this crime stopping with guns is any more frequent than bad shit? That’s why I said “It’s a wash”. > [@](#): > > As for unintentional gun deaths, “accidental” gun deaths very rarely happen. Tell it to the CDC. Sheesh, this really is like arguing with creationists. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/194 "2006-10-04T01:47:18Z")
Excellent point, **SenorBeef**. Accidents do happen, but they are exceedingly rare. Here, I am defining “accident” as a bad outcome even when all 4 rules are followed. A bit OT, but I had a firearm accident a couple of years ago. I was shooting my FAL in the backyard, and a round went off when the bolt was not fully locked. The root cause was a broken firing pin. My face got sprayed with high velocity, hot propellant. I received thousands of small blood dots all over my face. Didn’t feel good, I’ll tell ya. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/195 "2006-10-04T01:48:28Z")
[QUOTE=CarnalK] You’re making the logical fallacy of “not getting it”. I’m saying your hypothetical benefits are just as valid as my hypothetical harms. If I wave my gun around to clear up a traffic jam, nobody is hurt but it sure doesn’t help society. Why are we all supposed to accept that all this crime stopping with guns is any more frequent than bad shit? That’s why I said “It’s a wash”. [/quote] Yes, there are bad uses of guns that don’t involve someone’s death. Yes, there are good uses of guns that don’t involve someone’s death. Just because you cannot precisely quantify these things does not mean that they are equal and cancel out. Your entire argument on this subject has been “Welp, not that many people are sent to the hospital by defensive gun uses, therefore guns are useless in a defensive role”. You made no effort to read the peer-reviewed study that I linked you to. > [@](#): > > Tell it to the CDC. What relevance does that have? The CDC counts people dying due to drunk driving as an accidental death too, right? Does that mean it’s not negligent? > [@](#): > > Sheesh, this really is like arguing with creationists. [/quote] Go fuck yourself. I give you valid science to read, you discard it and declare whatever your gut feeling is true. I’ve been polite and rational with you, and you insult me in this manner. It is YOU who are ignoring the facts, making proclamations based on your preconceptions. YOU are the one who’s arguing like a creationist. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/196 "2006-10-04T01:53:40Z")
[QUOTE=CarnalK] Tell it to the CDC. Sheesh, this really is like arguing with creationists. [/QUOTE] I would estimate there are less than a dozen deaths in the U.S. every year resulting from the \*accidental \* discharge of firearms. If you think I’m way off base, it means you do not know the difference between an \*accidental \* discharge and a \*negligent \* discharge. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/197 "2006-10-04T01:58:10Z")
**CarnalK** : You still haven’t answered my questions: 1. Do you have a smoke alarm in your house? If so, **why**? 2. Do you wear a seatbelt when you’re in a moving vehicle? If so, **why**? ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/198 "2006-10-04T02:30:12Z")
[QUOTE=Crafter\_Man] My wife is 5’ 0" and weighs 110 lbs. I just asked her, “Let’s say you’re pregnant. What if a 6’ 2” male, armed with 3 guns, broke into our house while I wasn’t here? Furthermore, he orders you out of the house, while telling our 3 young children to stay inside. What would you do?" She replied, “I would use whatever means I have to stop him, including biting and kicking. I would do everything possible to stop him. Any other mother would do the same.” [/QUOTE] Do we know that any of the released women were the mothers of any of the girls? ---
**Author:** ![XaMcQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/f9ae1b/32.png) [@XaMcQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XaMcQ)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/199 "2006-10-04T02:35:04Z")
[QUOTE=Crafter\_Man] **CarnalK** : You still haven’t answered my questions: 1. Do you have a smoke alarm in your house? If so, **why**? 2. Do you wear a seatbelt when you’re in a moving vehicle? If so, **why**? [/QUOTE] So what is your suggestion for keeping guns OUT of the hands of people who are too friggin’ irresponsible to have them? I count myself firmly in this camp, and have ever since I nearly shot my brother when I was sixteen and he was being a fourteen year-old prick. I was raised with guns and taught to shoot. Supposedly I should have known better. But I was feeling powerless and I knew where the pistol was. Instant power! People lose their tempers. They go nuts. They get scared of noises in the middle of the night and shoot their kids who were trying to sneak back in after a night of mischief. They get drunk out of their gourds. They get depressed. Smoke alarms are annoying when they go off accidently. Seat belts might bruise you if they lock without real reason. Guns are much more dangerous. So are cars. We all have to pass a test and be licensed before we can drive, but I sure see an awful lot of those rules from the drivers’ manual being broken out on the roads. If everyone were armed, even if they had to pass some kind of test first, I think entirely too many people would throw the rules right out the window as soon as they were done with the test. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993/200 "2006-10-04T02:39:10Z")
[QUOTE=XaMcQ] If everyone were armed, even if they had to pass some kind of test first, I think entirely too many people would throw the rules right out the window as soon as they were done with the test. [/QUOTE] Yet, 39 states have “Shall Issue” CCW laws, and none of them have erupted in shootouts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-never-ever-understand-my-fellow-man/374993.md?page=11)