# I wish there were more Hindus on this board to talkw ith, debate with
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-there-were-more-hindus-on-this-board-to-talkw-ith-debate-with/307992
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [June 12, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-there-were-more-hindus-on-this-board-to-talkw-ith-debate-with/307992 "2005-06-12T19:38:36Z")
**Posts on this page:** 13
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2005, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-there-were-more-hindus-on-this-board-to-talkw-ith-debate-with/307992/21 "2005-06-14T01:36:37Z")
**Aanamika** , are you Hindu or not? In another thread, you just posted that you are an atheist. Are you using Hindu as a cultural label, do you mean you wish there were more Indians??
I’d be interested in your beliefs as I am a hybrid Taoist/Buddhist, but I wouldn’t feel very comfortable debating religion (but I might be able to watch your 6 o’clock for bogies–as I think you’re a pretty cool chick.) I really don’t feel as if I have an authoritative position in my limited knowledge. I have never participated in any organized expression or Buddhist service, and most of my beliefs arise from _The Tao Te Ching_ and \*_Dhammapada_.
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### Author:  [@hawkeyejo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawkeyejo)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-there-were-more-hindus-on-this-board-to-talkw-ith-debate-with/307992/22 "2005-06-14T01:41:56Z")
> [@devilsknew](#):
>
> I might be able to watch your 6 o’clock for bogies
Translation please. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-there-were-more-hindus-on-this-board-to-talkw-ith-debate-with/307992/23 "2005-06-14T01:58:19Z")
> [@hawkeyejo](#):
>
> Translation please. :rolleyes:
Watch her back, so to speak…moral support, an active interest… chivalrous defense.
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### Author:  [@hawkeyejo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawkeyejo)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2005, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-there-were-more-hindus-on-this-board-to-talkw-ith-debate-with/307992/24 "2005-06-14T02:04:10Z")
> [@devilsknew](#):
>
> Watch her back, so to speak…moral support, an active interest… chivalrous defense.
ah…like in a dogfight…
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### Author:  [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2005, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-there-were-more-hindus-on-this-board-to-talkw-ith-debate-with/307992/25 "2005-06-14T02:11:38Z")
It is maybe a bit presumptious as I doubt she will need it, she’s a Detroit-New Yorker after all… she could probably kick my ass, if she wanted to. But I got a bit of a crush…what can I say.
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### Author:  [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2005, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-there-were-more-hindus-on-this-board-to-talkw-ith-debate-with/307992/26 "2005-06-14T02:56:55Z")
D’oh-- I guess the debate has begun, already. To all interested-- Mach 4 to Great Debates.
[**Ask the (atheist) Hindu**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=320943)
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### Author:  [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2005, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-there-were-more-hindus-on-this-board-to-talkw-ith-debate-with/307992/27 "2005-06-14T03:04:50Z")
> [@Anaamika](#):
>
> Then you say it’s pointless to even try! \
> So why is it anathema to even try? I don’t understand this attitude, I really don’t. “We don’t know anything, so don’t even bother trying. Go somewhere else.”
Where did you get this from? Not sure what you took to mean I feel it is pointless to try.
To wit,
We, the aforementioned yuppies, _usually_ know jackshit about Hinduism beyond B.R.Chopra and his ilk. Whether we would like to know more or not is a different matter entirely.
You want discussion now. People who know jackshit about something are usually incapable of sensible discussion about it. Ergo, if you want something now, better to go somewhere you’re likely to get it from now, yes?
Am I averse to threads on Hinduism? Why on earth should I be?! I’m just saying that most of the Hindu sample available on the boards now is incapable of contributing significantly.
My thanking the posters who fought my ignorance was…well…a thank you for fighting my ignorance. I learnt something, I got a new perspective on something, and so I thanked the persons who were at the root of my newfound knowledge.
Here’s to hoping that your threads stay afloat, and you (we) all learn a lot. I will certainly contribute insofar as my very limited knowledge permits.
> [@hawkeyejo](#):
>
> Case in point, the story of Krishna itself is not part of the Mahabharat (I think). It was probably put in there because of its popularity. Artistic license - I have exercised it many times myself.
Cite, please? The 24 (?) _Vishnu avataras_ are definitely mentioned in the _Bhagavata Purana_, but the _Krishna Leela_ and the _Bhagavada Gita_ are very much a part of the _Mahabharata_.
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### Author:  [@hawkeyejo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawkeyejo)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-there-were-more-hindus-on-this-board-to-talkw-ith-debate-with/307992/28 "2005-06-14T03:33:09Z")
> [@aankh](#):
>
> Cite, please? The 24 (?) _Vishnu avataras_ are definitely mentioned in the _Bhagavata Purana_, but the _Krishna Leela_ and the _Bhagavada Gita_ are very much a part of the _Mahabharata_.
I didn’t say Krishna isn’t mentioned in the Mahabharat. I said it doesn’t itself deal with the story of Krishna. Bhagvad Geeta is told by Krishna, it doesn’t deal with his life. His life and stories thereof are primarily covered in the Shrimad Bhagvat Puran. I have already provided link in the other posts, but here’s one more:
> [@Wikipedia](#):
>
> Accounts of or ballads about Krishna occur in a large number of philosophical, religious and poetic works. These include the Mahabharata, the Bhagavad Gita, the Bhagavata Purana, and the Gita Govinda. **In the Shrimad Bhagavata Purana there are thousands of lines that are dedicated solely to extolling His life and philosophy.**
Bolding mine. The Bhagvat Puran is one of the Purans and separate from the Mahabharat. A lot of the vedic texts contain snippets of the same story and references to and inferences from stories mentioned in other texts. So the question is not if Krishna gets mentioned in the Mahabharat, obviously he plays a big part in it, but whether the story of his life is a part of Mahabharat.
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### Author:  [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2005, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-there-were-more-hindus-on-this-board-to-talkw-ith-debate-with/307992/29 "2005-06-14T03:46:58Z")
> [@hawkeyejo](#):
>
> So the question is not if Krishna gets mentioned in the Mahabharat, obviously he plays a big part in it, but whether the story of his life is a part of Mahabharat.
I’m not denying that the life and times of Krishna are covered at length in the Bhagavata Purana. I was actually asking for a cite that Krishna’s story was put in the Mahabharata for its popularity. So far as I know (which admittedly is not very far), it’s always been in there.
The best cite I can come up with is this:
> [@wikipedia](#):
>
> Among the principal works and stories that are a part of the Mahabharata are the following. They are often isolated and presented as works complete in and of themselves.
> \
> 3. Krishnavatara (the story of Krishna, the Krishna Leela, which is woven through many chapters of the story)\
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### Author:  [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2005, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-there-were-more-hindus-on-this-board-to-talkw-ith-debate-with/307992/30 "2005-06-14T06:47:16Z")
Thanks for the shout out, **aankh!** Although I haven’t done so much in-depth study of Vaishnava classics as **Anaamika** has, at least I have an idea what Vaishnavism is about and how it fits in with other Hindu currents. It has some really interesting history, especially how the _bhakti_ movement originated and spread. You might be surprised to know how Vaishnava _bhakti_ got started.
I, personally, would like a shout out for Shaktism, Shaivism, and Tantrism, just FTR that Vaishnavism, while a major form of Hinduism, is not the only thing. My contact, such as it is, with the Hindu universe has been through yoga, the Upanishads, and Goddess _sadhana_.
I would rather discuss a Shakta classic like the _Devi Mahatmya_, but first it would be nice if anyone else around here has heard of it. What is famous in some Hindu circles may be entirely unknown elsewhere. I’ve been a member of several online discussion groups for Shakti lovers, which is the focus of Hinduism that calls to me the most.
The introduction to the English translation of the _Devi Gita_ pointed out that there had been many _Gita_s (songs) of various deities across India. The _Bhagavadgita_, filed as an episode within the _Mahabharata_ but thematically almost independent from it, was raised to unusual prominence during British colonialism because Christian missionaries were pushing the Bible on Hindus. As Hindu reformers learned English and regrouped to push back in defense of Hinduism, they came to promote the _Bhagavadgita_ as the Hindu equivalent to the Bible. Never mind that the concept of a single authoritative text for all Hindus, as the Bible is for Christians, had been alien to Hinduism up to that point. So ironically by resisting Christians and replying in kind, they reshaped Hinduism by imposing a more Christian outlook. The translator of the _Devi Gita_ was making the point that there has long been far more diversity in Hinduism than one would expect from taking a single book as the “Bible” of Hinduism. The title _Devi Gita_ means ‘Song of the Goddess’ and was revealed by the Goddess Bhuvaneshvari (Supreme Ruler of the Universe), to whom the male gods Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva all pay homage.
Shaktism played a significant role in India’s struggle for independence, and it would be nice to see that acknowledged.
Shaivism is the main current behind the hatha yoga craze that has spread around the world, although yoga is as diverse as Hinduism itself. You can find Vaishnava yoga, Shaiva yoga, Shakta yoga, and Tantric yoga. Georg Feuerstein, a scholar of Tantra, views hatha yoga as coming from just one branch of Tantric yoga, the original source. The god Shiva is of course the great prototype of the Yogi, sitting up there meditating in the Himalayas. He’s also the original Lord of the Dance—_Nataraja_. For that matter, Vedanta, without which Hinduism would not be Hinduism as we know it, is mainly connected with Shaivism (although there is plenty of Vaishnava Vedanta too).
Hinduism is so diverse, in what sense can it be reified into a single coherent phenomenon? The usual answer is that Hindus are those who accept the authority of the Vedas. This sets aside other Indian religions that rejected the Vedas, namely Jainism and Buddhism, as non-Hindu, and gathers in pretty much everything else. It’s perhaps an overly simplistic answer and can be criticized for what it doesn’t take into account, but then I’ve already noted my bias is Shaktic and Tantric. The Vedas are still chanted by Brahmin priests in temples, a remarkable continuity over thousands of years, and in this sense Hinduism remains a Vedic-based religion… however, the texts of the Vedas themselves can hardly be said to contribute anything to forming the Hindu worldview as we know it today. Many of the Vedic deities are little remembered today, while many of the most popular deities today were never mentioned in the Vedas. Vedanta, Tantrism, Shaktism, and the _bhakti_ movement—plus vegetarianism for which the Jains, not the Vedas, get credit—are what formed Hinduism as we know it. You can trace present-day Hinduism directly back to the Vedas, but it has changed so much over the years in its intellectual elaborations and practical applications that it’s like a different religion.
Some of the most interesting developments in North Indian Hinduism, to me anyway, occurred only a few hundred years ago, when the _bhakti_ and _sahaja_ currents fused with Sufism to bring forth a new synthesis represented by Kabir, who mocked Brahmins and mullas alike and redirected the search for God into the immediate and personal. Nowadays the concept that God cannot be found in temple or mosque, you have to look within your heart, is sung in Hindi film lyrics and is widely familiar. But when Kabir first came out with it, it was revolutionary and radically democratic. The Sikh religion also came about as an offshoot of these developments.
Anyway, although I am not a Hindu, I have spent many years drawing from the richness this great tradition has to offer. Thanks for starting this, **Anaamika**.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2005, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-there-were-more-hindus-on-this-board-to-talkw-ith-debate-with/307992/31 "2005-06-14T11:32:19Z")
> [@Anaamika](#):
>
> Well, perhaps I’ll start a thread on the MahaBharat, since that is really what I wished to discuss.
If we can get a two week delay before the wrangle begins, I can read it. I am not of Indian extraction (except 1/100ths American Cherokee 😉 ) but I would be able to discuss it on a literary level.
In college I saw it in the library and read the first 15 or so pages, but didn’t check it out–so I only vaguely have some recollection of something about who had which weapons or something like that, at the moment.
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### Author:  [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2005, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-there-were-more-hindus-on-this-board-to-talkw-ith-debate-with/307992/32 "2005-06-14T12:35:01Z")
\*\*Johanna \*\* starts out by saying that she hasn’t studied as much as me, and then goes on to list a ton of fascinating, interesting things that I really enjoyed reading. 😃
Seriously, I’m by no means an expert. But the things I’ve thought I’m an expert on, I’ve learned more about from the Dope! Which is why I’d like to discuss stuff!
**Sage Rat** , I’d be willing to wait, of course! If you’re in the mood to read it…it is good reading to me, but someone else may think so.
I’m gratified to find there are way more people than I thought interested, and will continue to try to post threads that may be of interest to everyone.
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### Author:  [@hawkeyejo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawkeyejo)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2005, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-there-were-more-hindus-on-this-board-to-talkw-ith-debate-with/307992/33 "2005-06-14T12:56:34Z")
> [@aankh](#):
>
> I’m not denying that the life and times of Krishna are covered at length in the Bhagavata Purana. I was actually asking for a cite that Krishna’s story was put in the Mahabharata for its popularity. So far as I know (which admittedly is not very far), it’s always been in there.
>
> The best cite I can come up with is this:
I figured my grandmother is a pretty good source for these things (second-hand I know, but beats reading 20000 lines of verse). Anyway, I found [this](http://larryavisbrown.homestead.com/files/xeno.mahabsynop.htm) interesting synopsis of the Mahabharat which gives the lowdown on Krishna:
> [@someone](#):
>
> **As tension mounts between the cousins, Krishna makes his appearance. It is said he may be an incarnation of the god Vishnu, the preserver, come down to save the earth from chaos. The appearance of Krishna introduces a major theme in the epic: dharma (cosmic order) menaced by chaos, so Krishna must step in, indicating that this is not just a family rivalry, but a conflict with universal consequences.**
>
> In the medieval Puranas, the story developed that Vishnu had appeared on earth nine times in the past as an avatar or incarnation, in order to set the world back on the right path, and would appear again at the end of the age.
> Krishna’s deification in the Mahabharata may be based on later interpolations into the text, as there is considerable tension in the epic between the depiction of the divine Krishna and the human prince who acts as counselor to the Pandavas, gives devious advice, and eventually dies.
> On Krishna’s advice the Pandavas present themselves to the blind king. To make peace, Dhritarashtra offers them half the kingdom, but in a region which was nothing but jungle and desert. Yudhishthira accepts his offer in the hope of averting a war.
So far as I know (I’ll check with Wikipedia again), Vyas wrote the Bhagvat Puran too, so later editions of Mahabharat might have come prepackaged with the story of Krishna. But I still don’t think the details of his birth, childhood etc. were covered in the Mahabharat, though short of reading the MB I can’t be sure.
I haven’t had time to look at the above site, but if you get time to read some of it you might find some other interesting tidbits.
–H
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