# I wish to take issue with TubaDiva's recent magic tricks decision. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934 "2004-07-13T18:18:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/21 "2004-07-14T17:57:06Z")
So technically Lazlo’s outing of the trick in this thread [Man plays the piano with his balls!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=265907) was not allowable? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/22 "2004-07-14T18:47:29Z")
Explaining how a magic trick is done to the general public is an expellable offence in the Magic Circle (the UK’s society of professional magicians). ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/23 "2004-07-14T18:49:47Z")
I strongly agree with the OP. I don’t see that there is any reason, legally or ethically, not to permit discussion of how magic tricks are performed. Not only is this decision is a stark reversal of previous policy (as it flies in the face of previous threads discussing exactly this, as well as columns by Cecil), but it singles out one particular profession as worthy of special treatment. > [@TubaDiva](#): > > …In the rough concept, it would not be illegal for us to tell you how a trick is done. However, it would be unethical, especially when you consider that magic tricks and illusions are the product of someone’s work and often their livelihood. > > People have the right to be compensated for their work and we prefer that you not abridge such rights on this site. As we wish our copyright to be honored, we ask that you also respect the rights of others as well. With all due respect, **TubaDiva** , I feel that your last paragraph only confuses the issue. Copyrights are clearly defined and legally protected; the “rights of others…to be compensated for their work” are not, and for good reason–such “rights” are nebulous in the extreme, as other posters have demonstrated. Finally, I fail to see how any magicians’ livelihood would be threatened by revealing how magic tricks are done, anyway. Simply knowing how a trick is done is a far cry from actually performing the trick. Even when a person knows how a trick is performed, it is still enjoyable watching how a given magician actually conducts the trick. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/24 "2004-07-14T18:55:30Z")
> [@qts](#): > > Explaining how a magic trick is done to the general public is an expellable offence in the Magic Circle (the UK’s society of professional magicians). Then I would suggest that any Dopers who are also members of the Magic Circle kindly refrain from such explanations. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/25 "2004-07-14T18:57:38Z")
Hey, we better ban explaining how certain surgeries are done. Doctors that perform surgeries livelihoods depend on that income, and it would be extremely unethical to have every know how to perform a heart transplant. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/26 "2004-07-14T19:16:39Z")
> [@qts](#): > > Explaining how a magic trick is done to the general public is an expellable offence in the Magic Circle (the UK’s society of professional magicians). I’m sure you’re right, but that’s completely irrelevant to the issue at hand. The Magic Circle is, as you say, a society specifically dedicated to the art of professional magic, and presumably to preserving the secrets of professional magicians. I couldn’t find any condition on their website, but i assume that the rule about revealing magic tricks to the public is made clear to members and prospective members, and that members agree to the conditions of membership before joining. We, however, as members of the general public, and of this message board, have made no such undertaking. We have no professional or legal obligation to magicians to keep their secrets. I don’t think we even have any sort of moral or ethical obligation to do so. After all, as others have pointed out, you could apply the same logic to someone who chooses to learn how to renovate their own home, rather than paying a professional to do the job. Furthermore, the argument that this will drive magicians out of business is just silly. Firstly, some people don’t even _want_ to know how the tricks are performed, and those people can stay away from threads and conversations where such things are discussed. Second, even if someone does know how a trick is done, this does not necessarily mean that the peson would then avoid watching a magician. In fact, i can see myself being _more_ interested once i knew the trick, because i would then watch the magician closely to see how adept s/he was as performing it. The SDMB admin has made decisions that i disagreed with in the past, but i always respected them and the concerns that impelled them. This decision i neither agree with nor respect. It’s just fucking dumb. As **yojimbo** pointed out in the other thread, the SDMB has so far shown no evidence to support its stand “other than the opinion of interested parties.” ---
**Author:** ![Bongmaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Bongmaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bongmaster)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/27 "2004-07-14T20:00:06Z")
I’ve been doing magic since I was a wee lad and I learned everything I know from books. I mostly agree with the OP…everyone knows that magic is just illusion (except for the Miss Cleo camp, but that’s something else entirely) and there are no legal tangles we would face on the board by writing descriptions of how tricks are done. BUT… …doing so shows no class. To discuss how magic is done in public goes against the grain. So its really a matter of how the people running this message board want the place to be percieved. Does it matter if all the magicians of the world think badly of us for allowing these kinds of discussions to go on? That’s the real issue, its not a legal or ethical thing. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/28 "2004-07-14T20:12:48Z")
> [@Bongmaster](#): > > …doing so shows no class. I disagree with this. As long as people know that it’s being discussed, so they can avoid the conversation if they wish, “class” doesn’t really factor into it, in my book. > [@](#): > > Does it matter if all the magicians of the world think badly of us for allowing these kinds of discussions to go on? No. No it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![tremorviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@tremorviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tremorviolet)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/29 "2004-07-14T20:13:55Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > The SDMB admin has made decisions that i disagreed with in the past, but i always respected them and the concerns that impelled them. This decision i neither agree with nor respect. It’s just fucking dumb. Big honkin’ word. The decision totally distrubs both as an indication of the direction the board is taking and as a overall indicator of the increasing restrictions of the public’s right to know by commercial and other interests through intimidation. Copyrights extended indefinitely? Public documents considered “classfied” indefinitely? (when I first typed this posted, stupid hamsters, I had a rather long, tedious, and political rant in here, I’ll refrain from reranting) Bleh. I’m gonna go renew my ACLU membership _right now_… ---
**Author:** ![Dan\_Norder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4af34b/32.png) [@Dan\_Norder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dan_Norder)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/30 "2004-07-14T20:18:47Z")
Yeah, I guess the people running the board want the respect of a few professional magicians who unethically and perhaps illegally (knowing misattributing sometihng in the public domain as being covered by copyright for your own benefit is a federal offense, although one not yet prosecuted to the best of my knowledge) try to bully other people to protect their secrets for them or whether the Straight Dope wants the respect of everyone who appreciates intellectual discussion on a variety of topics. TubaDiva, IMNSHO, has mafe a very poor decision on this, one which, in fact, is a slap to the face of Cecil himself who has been known to give away magic secrets in his columns. There’s no blame in admitting a mistake and changing your mind, which I hope she does soon for the sake of the credibility of the boards, if nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![Shrinking\_Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Shrinking\_Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shrinking_Violet)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/31 "2004-07-14T20:23:07Z")
> [@Bongmaster](#): > > So its really a matter of how the people running this message board want the place to be percieved. Does it matter if all the magicians of the world think badly of us for allowing these kinds of discussions to go on? That’s the real issue, its not a legal or ethical thing. Agreed … but only if you switch it round … _“So its really a matter of how the people running this message board want the place to be percieved. Does it matter if all the **non** -magicians of the world think badly of us for allowing these kinds of discussions to go on? That’s the real issue, its not a legal or ethical thing.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Greenback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/2bfe46/32.png) [@Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/32 "2004-07-14T20:28:27Z")
No more computer questions on the SDMB. By helping someone through their computer problen is actually taking money right out of a call center’s hands. Especially if you are using the same steps that Dell would use to fix the problem. :rolleyes: I know how a lot of tricks are done. The ones i don’t, I can look up easily enough…and for free. Will that stop me frm seeing a magician? No. A magician with flair can don the most basic tricks and still entertain. The trick is the payoff but it is up to the magician to actually set the stage. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/33 "2004-07-14T20:36:49Z")
I, too, think **Tuba** is off-base on this one. Sufficient legal authority has been quoted here, and I’m not sure what I could add to that. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/34 "2004-07-14T21:11:48Z")
FWIW, I agree. While I understand the staff’s concerns about being sued, and while no one can guarantee that a baseless lawsuit won’t be filed, I think the legal authorities quoted so far are convincing. If the threat of a baseless lawsuit from a pressure group can cause the SDMB to ban a category of questions, then where does it end? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/35 "2004-07-14T21:46:19Z")
> [@Random](#): > > FWIW, I agree. While I understand the staff’s concerns about being sued, and while no one can guarantee that a baseless lawsuit won’t be filed, I think the legal authorities quoted so far are convincing. > > If the threat of a baseless lawsuit from a pressure group can cause the SDMB to ban a category of questions, then where does it end? If we start worrying about _baseless_ lawsuits, we’d better pack it in and shut the whole damned thing down. _Anyone_ can sue _anyone else_ over _anything_ in the US, where the SDMB is physically based. It’s up to the judge to throw out the worst of the moronic cases, but some real doozies have made it to trial proper. Lawsuits are like lighning: You can refrain from standing in a bucket of salt water with a copper pole on your head during a thunderstorm, but that’s no guarantee you’re completely safe. ---
**Author:** ![Ghanima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Ghanima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ghanima)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/36 "2004-07-14T22:03:37Z")
I think the teeming thousands do a pretty good job on censoring themselves when it comes to inapprpriate topics. I seem to recall a “let’s give away fraternity/sorority secrets” thread that was one hell of a trainwreck in which most people not only refused to do so but reviled those who did. Not a whole lot of secrets were given away in that thread, IIRC. Why aren’t we allowed the same freedom of discussion and self-censorship for magic tricks? I think **TubaDiva** ’s call was a dud. And as far as the “magic tricks are the kind of ignorance that doesn’t need to be fought” bullshit, well go suck an egg. What if people use sleight-of-hand to rip other people off, did you think of that? Do we not have a right to learn those kinds of tricks so we can watch for them? Besides, who are you to decide whether or not I _need_ to know that kind of information? Not only that, but knowing how a trick is done does not necessarily decrease the enjoyment of it, just like special effects in movies. I wonder what the other Mods think of this one. ---
**Author:** ![Anonymous\_Coward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@Anonymous\_Coward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anonymous_Coward)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/37 "2004-07-14T23:49:47Z")
Discussions regarding Scientology and their methods should also be banned. Won’t _someone_ think of the Scientologists? Xenu ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/38 "2004-07-14T23:56:39Z")
> [@qts](#): > > Explaining how a magic trick is done to the general public is an expellable offence in the Magic Circle (the UK’s society of professional magicians). Don’t British magicians sell books, videotapes, etc… , then? ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/39 "2004-07-14T23:59:44Z")
> [@Anonymous Coward](#): > > Discussions regarding Scientology and their methods should also be banned. Personally, I’d be a lot more worried about Scientologists than magicians. But perhaps that’s just me. Maybe others are more frightened about being sawed in half. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/40 "2004-07-15T00:17:22Z")
FYI, **TubaDiva** has [responded](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=266416) to **Jayrot’s** ATMB thread on this subject, essentially just drawing a comparison between asking how a trick is done and asking someone to illegally upload music or movies. Oh, and she threatens us with the shutdown of the SDMB. She doesn’t seem to have paid attention to anything any of us have said in the two threads currently in the Pit. Methinks the professional magician’s lobby has curiously strong pull among the SDMB administration, and I’d be very interested to see **Tuba** address any of the myriad arguments, legal or otherwise, made in this thread and in the original. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934.md?page=3)