# I wish to take issue with TubaDiva's recent magic tricks decision. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934 "2004-07-13T18:18:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/41 "2004-07-15T01:19:53Z")
She also doesn’t seem to realize that there are a handful of lawyers on this messageboard. From her: > [@](#): > > 1. None of us are lawyers here. Myself especially. ---
**Author:** ![JRootabega](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e7dd6/32.png) [@JRootabega](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRootabega)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/42 "2004-07-15T02:00:47Z")
But…but…Abb Dickson! ABB!!! ---
**Author:** ![Creative\_Munster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/919ad9/32.png) [@Creative\_Munster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Creative_Munster)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/43 "2004-07-15T02:23:34Z")
> [@Bongmaster](#): > > I’ve been doing magic since I was a wee lad and I learned everything I know from books. I mostly agree with the OP…everyone knows that magic is just illusion (except for the Miss Cleo camp, but that’s something else entirely) and there are no legal tangles we would face on the board by writing descriptions of how tricks are done. BUT… > > …doing so shows no class. **To discuss how magic is done in public goes against the grain.** So its really a matter of how the people running this message board want the place to be percieved. **Does it matter if all the magicians of the world think badly of us for allowing these kinds of discussions to go on?** That’s the real issue, its not a legal or ethical thing. I can do one trick really well. Spent hours practicing it until I could perform it almost to perfection. Do I now own this trick? Because if I do, I am already in the habit of telling everyone I perform that trick for how I do it after performing a few times and giving them a chance to guess, and I would like to share the secrets of this trick with the Straight Dope community. I don’t think all magicians of the world would think badly of this message board if certain members decided to discuss how tricks are performed. I doubt it would even be the majority. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/44 "2004-07-15T02:38:58Z")
This is a debate that’s been going on for [quite some time](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=90341), and my opinion on it now is the same as it was three years ago: those who want to discuss tricks should be free to discuss them. Those who do not wish to reveal should refrain from posting, while those who do not wish to see spoilers should refrain from reading. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/45 "2004-07-15T03:10:10Z")
> [@Bongmaster](#): > > …doing so shows no class. Umm, this is the messageboard in which people have described feeding their semen to their goldfish, right? in which people have talked about their most disgusting menstrual flows? In which people are currently comparing a US Senator to that frothy mixture of lube and fecal matter that is sometimes the byproduct of anal sex? We kinda missed the class bus awhile ago. And it’s not really like Cecil Himself is that much better: he’s a great guy, but Judith Martin he ain’t. His whole schtick, besides the omniscience thing, is making lowbrow jokes and insulting people for asking questions. My understanding is that anyone who makes the slightest threat of ever suing anyone on the SDMB, or suing the boards themselves, is supposed to get banned pronto. That’s a great rule. Closing threads because someone suggests, contrary to all informed legal opinion, that a thread could open the boards up to lawsuits seems pretty silly. I’ve posted my own directions for making a chef’s signature cheesecake recipe before; I figured that because I was attributing the concept to her and writing the recipe in my own words (and with my own commentary on my experiences making it), I was copacetic. But now I’m wondering whether that would run afoul of the new rule. I hope the mods and admins do reconsider this decision. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![XJETGIRLX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9fc29f/32.png) [@XJETGIRLX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XJETGIRLX)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/46 "2004-07-15T16:35:01Z")
Oh dear lord, I suppose we better get rid of Cafe Society in its entirety then. How is this any different than talking about how they did special effects in a new movie, or how the created the graphics or characters for a new video game? How is this different from giving people the backstory on a new author and how they researched their new book? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/47 "2004-07-15T16:51:47Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > …snip… > As a very, very, very amateur and unskilled student of magic, I feel that precisely the same principle applies to magic tricks. The only difference is cultural; many magicians have a strict code about revealing secrets. 99% of this is simply showmanship. The truth is, there are no more secrets in magic than there are in movies. Both can make people dissapear. It’s the context and performance that makes a magic show or movie enjoyable as art, whether or not you know how it’s done. > > Therefore, I believe that instructions for performing magic tricks should be allowed on the board. Common courtesy would dictate that spoiler warnings be provided for people who do not want to know. I agree. I am an amateur magician myself. I know how most of the illusions are performed. What I love is the showmanship and the skill to do the illusions smoothly, which is the true art of performance magic. Revealing the mechanics of how to do it is immaterial. Here, I’m going to reveal a secret in another profession that bears a strong parallel to revealing magic tricks: Buildings are built by stacking bricks on top of each other, with mortar in between. The analogy here is that the mechanic of palming a coin or a playing card is similar to stacking the bricks; pretty much anyone can do it, and some people do it real well. The art, however, is the selling of the illusion, just as the art is the design of how the bricks are stacked to produce either an outhouse or an award-winning skyscraper, and very few do that. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/48 "2004-07-15T17:29:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Here, I’m going to reveal a secret in another profession that bears a strong parallel to revealing magic tricks: Buildings are built by stacking bricks on top of each other, with mortar in between. Damn it man, what have you done?! The litigious wrath of the International Union of Bricklayers will surely be upon us! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/49 "2004-07-15T17:32:09Z")
Whew, I’m safe. The only thing I ever try to teach is how to write in iambic pentameter, and since no one can make money writing in iambic pentameter, I can’t screw with anyone’s livelihood! 😃 Seriously, though, deleting instructions for magic tricks is an ill-thought and ill-argued position. Even a book like _10 Secrets of Highly Successful People_ can’t copyright what the secrets _are_, just how they are written. I get to tell anyone I choose how to do the Atkins diet. Lots of people can benefit by controlling the flow of information–that doesn’t mean the rest of us have to abet them. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/50 "2004-07-15T18:01:56Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Damn it man, what have you done?! The litigious wrath of the International Union of Bricklayers will surely be upon us! :eek: You think you’re joking, but when it comes to keeping their secrets, the Masons don’t fuck around. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/51 "2004-07-15T18:13:51Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > You think you’re joking, but when it comes to keeping their secrets, the Masons don’t fuck around. > > Daniel Tell me about it. When my grandfather died, he had a Masonic funeral. The fact that I wouldn’t be able to attend the actual funeral was one of the reasons I didn’t attend. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/52 "2004-07-15T18:14:45Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > She also doesn’t seem to realize that there are a handful of lawyers on this messageboard. From her: I think she likely was talking about the staff. ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/53 "2004-07-15T18:29:00Z")
> [@Random](#): > > FWIW, I agree. While I understand the staff’s concerns about being sued, and while no one can guarantee that a baseless lawsuit won’t be filed, I think the legal authorities quoted so far are convincing. > > If the threat of a baseless lawsuit from a pressure group can cause the SDMB to ban a category of questions, then where does it end? I don’t where it ends, but it seems to me it should begin with the banning of the baseless plantiffs. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/54 "2004-07-15T18:48:46Z")
I have been thinking about this situation a little, so I did some poking around on the internet about it. I found [this site](http://www.billpalmer.com/exposure.htm), written by an “anti-exposure” magician named Bill Palmer, which references the aforementioned Abb Dickson. God, what a hoot this site is. > [@](#): > > As a member of the International Brotherhood of Magicians, the Society of American Magicians and the Magic Circle of London, I took an oath not to reveal magic secrets. > > For that reason, I am no longer providing a direct link to one of the larger magic sites on the internet. I used to name them here, but since they have such a high profile, if you knew their name, it would be too easy to find them. Hmmm…if the site has such a “high profile,” you’d think it would be easy enough to just find it by typing “magic” “secrets” into Google. It’s not like the 'Net has any secret code words. Anyway, Palmer refers to the initials of the site elsewhere on the page, so you can check to see whether the site you found is the one he’s talking about. > [@](#): > > The Society of American Magicians refuses to take any action about this matter. They also refuse to support magicians who actively oppose exposure, figuring that if they ignore exposure, maybe it will go away. Uh-oh! What was that brotherhood of magicians, bound to silence, deal all about? Apparently it’s not so powerful after all… > [@](#): > > That never works! It didn’t work with the Nazis, it doesn’t work with diseases, and it won’t work with exposure. Paging…Mr. Godwin! Paging…Mr. Godwin! > [@](#): > > Let’s suppose that you do kid shows, and as a public service you have decided to go to the local elementary school or middle school to make a presentation about magic…In demonstrating the different types of magic, you choose this item, which you do not realize all the children in the class know. They proceed to shoot you down. Now your performance has lost credibility, and you have lost any possible advertising benefit that you could have picked up from this demonstration. Not only that, you have possibly unintentionally ruined the business for any other magician who wants to perform at that school or for those kids. But…_think of the children_! Here’s an interesting slight-of-hand which illustrates our own concern well, I think. > [@](#): > > (A) museum is planning to expose Houdini’s “Metamorphosis.”…I just got an e-mail (May 7, 2004) with the dreadful news. Jonathan and Charlotte Pendragon who feature the Metamorphosis in their act. will be appearing in a benefit show for this museum. > > What’s wrong with this picture? Don’t they owe Houdini the courtesy of not exposing the method of the very illusion that they have copied! Yes! That’s right! COPIED They may do it faster. They may have another method. But they owe their inspiration to Houdini. Read the above quote carefully. At first, you would think the Pendragons copied Houdini’s routine, chapter and verse. In fact, they did no such thing, regardless of Palmer’s emphasis on the word “copied.” They didn’t show anybody how Houdini did the trick. They showed how they, the Pendragons themselves, performed the Metamorphosis, using their _own_ method. It’s akin to claiming that everyone who climbed Mount Everest after Edmund Hilary “copied” his methods. No, they may have matched his accomplishment, but they performed the feat in their own manner. Here comes our friend Abb Dickson. > [@](#): > > Here is the metaphor Abb Dickson gave me (about exposure of magic), the way I stated it on the local newscast. > > Magic is like a butterfly. You can give a 5-year old boy a butterfly, and he can look at it, admire it and marvel at its beauty, and then he can let it go. > > Or he can pull the wings and the legs off of it, to see how it works…and all he will have left is a dead butterfly…and he still won’t know how it works. I’ve got a better one. Magic is like a butterfly. You can give an entymologist a butterfly, and he can look at it, admire it and marvel at its beauty, and then he can let it go. Or he can study its flight, examine its habits, and dissect it, all to see what it can tell the world about that species of butterfly, and what it tells us about nature and science. Ignorance is ignorance, no matter how it’s presented. The five-year-old sees a pretty butterfly, but knows nothing else about butterflies. But he learns something about how butterflies “work,” not only will he learn something, but his interest in butterflies will more than likely grow. Maybe he’ll want to be a scientist himself someday. Same with magic. Show a kid a magic trick, and he’ll be amused for a few moments. _Teach_ a kid a magic trick, and he’ll amuse others for a lifetime. But I digress. What’s most interesting from the site is what’s _not_ there. There are many attacks on those who reveal magic tricks. And, for that, Bill Palmer is absolutely within his rights. He’s free to say anything he wants about them. What he doesn’t–and can’t–say is that the revealing of magic tricks breaks any law, or that those who reveal the “secrets of magic” are contravening copyright, intellectual property, or any other legislation. And Palmer knows it. That’s why he refers to the Pendragons owing Houdini a “courtesy,” not a legal obligation, not to reveal secrets. Nowhere in the site is there any referral to legal action being taken against a single one of the magicians who reveal secrets. Here is the last quote from the page, which I think says it all. > [@](#): > > (All we ask for is a token amount of protection…either that, or for the people involved in this exposure to leave the various magical organizations that they belong to and thus remove their obligation not to expose magic. In other words, if you don’t belong to a professional organization, you are under no obligation not to expose magic. I think the point is clear. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/55 "2004-07-15T19:30:14Z")
I belong to a fraternal organization: the Knights of Columbus. While we are not a secret society, our ceremonies of initiation are secret. We keep these secret so as to not ruin the dramatic effect of their presentation to new members. Now, so far as I’m aware, the ceremonies are not available to non-members. And if the SDMB were to post the text of one of these ceremonies, I’d be outraged; they are copyright to the Order of the Knights of Columbus. But if someone were to explain what happens, in general, during such a ceremony, I’d be irked that our secret was publicly breached, but I wouldn’t feel that any lawbreaking or breach of legal obligation on the part of the SDMB was happening. Am I wrong, Board Admins? Does the SDMB commit to erasing any mention of K of C ceremonials, even general discussions of what goes on? How about other orders, like the Masons or the Odd Fellows? - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/56 "2004-07-15T19:33:56Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I’m sure you’re right, but that’s completely irrelevant to the issue at hand… A good counter-argument which has me convinced - apart from the obvious exception of members of the Magic Circle, of course. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/57 "2004-07-15T19:37:50Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I hope the mods and admins do reconsider this decision. They have, and TubaDiva has reopened the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/58 "2004-07-16T16:00:39Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Tell me about it. When my grandfather died, he had a Masonic funeral. The fact that I wouldn’t be able to attend the actual funeral was one of the reasons I didn’t attend. Interesting. Here in Florida, the Funeral Service is done at the gravesite with the family present. ---
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/59 "2004-07-16T16:30:55Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Interesting. Here in Florida, the Funeral Service is done at the gravesite with the family present. Same in Illinois. To my knowledge, Masonic funerals aren’t private. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934/60 "2004-07-16T16:52:51Z")
We attended my father-in-law’s funeral in Minnesota. It was Masonic, and we saw all the rituals and whatnot. Incidentally, that’s when I learned that at military cemeteries, the gravemarker symbol for atheists is a sylized helium atom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-to-take-issue-with-tubadivas-recent-magic-tricks-decision/254934.md?page=4)