# "I won't sign that thing." **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 28, 2004, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904 "2004-03-28T11:17:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![LolaBaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@LolaBaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaBaby)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/21 "2004-03-28T21:01:56Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Did you compare his scawl to the signature on the back of the credit card? Because I would’ve. His “I don’t like to sign those things” routine could’ve been a cover for using a stolen card and being unable to match the signature. that’s a very good point. **Rilchiam** don’t feel bad about looking like one of those cashiers. i’ve had conspiracy theorist customers like that as well. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/22 "2004-03-29T00:38:55Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Did you compare his scawl to the signature on the back of the credit card? Because I would’ve. His “I don’t like to sign those things” routine could’ve been a cover for using a stolen card and being unable to match the signature. A lot of places will tell their cashiers to NOT compare the signature with the one on the card. A) If the cashier thinks it doesn’t match, and he/she is wrong, then it’s bad blood between the consumer and the store (and the store doesn’t get the sale). B) If the signature is being forged by someone using the card illegally, the cashier may put his/herself in danger. The credit card company is responsible for ANY fraud. If the card is stolen, and it is reported stolen, when someone tries to use it, the authorization system will reply with “hold card”, meaning take the card and don’t give it back. If the authorization company approves the transaction, they have accepted responsibility for the transaction, not the cashier or the store. There must be some kind of signature on the transaction though, unsigned transactions are the store’s liability. (I think this is all correct, from what I remember of the credit card authorization subsystem I worked on.) It seems to me there are exceptions to these rules in Las Vegas, when you are getting cash advances on your credit card. They (the Vegas cashiers) are VERY careful about handing out cash advances, I believe I had to even put my thumbprint on the back of the check they wrote to me. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/23 "2004-03-29T00:48:24Z")
> [@ccwaterback](#): > > A lot of places will tell their cashiers to NOT compare the signature with the one on the card. Have you any evidence for that? ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/24 "2004-03-29T00:50:54Z")
The only responsibility the cashier has is to check that the card is indeed signed. Unsigned cards are invalid. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/25 "2004-03-29T00:57:41Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Have you any evidence for that? I will have to do some research, but I believe Best Buy is that way. Someone stole my card and charged $5000 worth of electronics there. All they had was my card. I seriously doubt they could reproduce my signature very well, but you never know. I have a good idea the person was black too, I was in a black neighborhood, and so on, when it was stole. I have a very non-black sounding last name, if you know what I mean. Another thing is, you (the person who had your card stolen) are only liable for $50. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/26 "2004-03-29T01:04:28Z")
After my card was stolen, and all this happened, of course the credit card company did an investigation. I asked the investigator why they (the cashier) didn’t check the signature and ask for identification. He game me reasons A and B from my previous post. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/27 "2004-03-29T01:19:05Z")
> [@ccwaterback](#): > > The only responsibility the cashier has is to check that the card is indeed signed. Unsigned cards are invalid. I write “Ask for ID” in the signature space on the back of my card; I never sign it. If the card is signed, that means it always has my stamp of approval on its use; if it says to ask for ID (which I’ve found that most cashiers don’t do otherwise), any cashier who actually reads the back of the card will be able to really find out if the bearer of my credit card is me. Am I invalidating myself? My father and I both do this, and nobody’s ever said anything about it. The only difference is that cashiers tend to ask for our IDs more often, of course (although not by as much as you’d expect). ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/28 "2004-03-29T02:23:59Z")
> [@fetus](#): > > I write “Ask for ID” in the signature space \ Hmm … very interesting. Since you have “something” in the signature area, maybe that’s all you need? I think most cards say explicitly on the back near the signature area “not valid unless signed”. But you may have hit a crack in the system though. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/29 "2004-03-29T02:32:34Z")
> [@The Tim](#): > > My signiture is an ever changing squiggle that tends towards a line on those electronic pads. No one seems to say anything about it, even those who want the signature for official documents and the like. > > I suppose this makes my signature more vulnerable to theft, and I’ve been thinking about trying to actually sign things in a more distinctive manner. However I have the feeling if I did so people would start checking it and point out that in my other signatures all there is is a line. I’ve actually done the opposite, going from a “normal” signature to one that is essentially a line. I started because all of the sudden at work, I had to sign dozens of things at a time and it was too much of a pain to sign each individually. I also worried about this (especially after a broker stated that she could forge it), but haven’t gotten around to changing it. The problem is that my credit card and everything else still has my old signature. I wonder if it’s legally acceptable for someone to have two signatures… ---
**Author:** ![caphis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19adc/32.png) [@caphis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caphis)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/30 "2004-03-29T02:49:46Z")
Unless Best Buy has recently changed its policies (I stopped working there about a year ago), the employee handbook tells us to verify all signatures against those on the back of the card. If we thought there were any discrepancies, we were to call a manager over. I, too, had a person give me the “I won’t sign that pad” schpiel, but only once. Our handbook had a provisio for people like that, and the procedure was to press a key that indicated they would not sign the pad, and 2 receipts would print (one for us, one for him). One our receipt, we had to have the customer sign, provide DL info, and make an imprint of the card. Then we all mocked him when he left. :\> ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/31 "2004-03-29T03:16:59Z")
Here’s a funny on the subject: [http://www.zug.com/pranks/credit/](http://www.zug.com/pranks/credit/) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/32 "2004-03-29T03:40:43Z")
This all makes me wonder, can you really verify a signature as someone’s? Even if you can sometimes why should this really matter? Basically with effort you can sign in a variety of ways, and signatures can change over time or because of specific circumstances. If you sneeze mid signing and produce an atypical signature does it not count as yours? I can vaguely understand why signatures were important, especially if there were witnesses to the signature, but it seems like a better authentication systems could be devised. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/33 "2004-03-29T03:41:46Z")
So it appears the credit card companies “recommend” retailers check signatures. Maybe it’s the $50 threshold that makes most retailers ignore this recommendation? (What I mean to say is, most of MY purchases with a credit card are under $50, or maybe just slightly over.) Now as far as Best Buy is concerned, it may just be a local practice that they don’t validate the signature on the card with the signature on the receipt, I don’t know. Maybe the employees in my area are just slipshod? I will test the Best Buy in my new neighborhood and see what they do (I now live far from where my card was stolen, like 1500 miles away.) I am intrigued, I think I will ask a few merchants around my house about this, to see if they are “required” by their employer to check the “signatures”. [http://www.646industries.com/mt/beyond\_s/archives/000103.html](http://www.646industries.com/mt/beyond_s/archives/000103.html) Credit card companies recommend that retailers check signatures against cards, and vendors are authorized to reject an unverifiable transaction and even confiscate the card, but it is common practice for stores to only match signatures on purchases over $50, which is why if your card has ever been stolen you’ll see many store purchases under that threshold. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/34 "2004-03-29T03:46:51Z")
The Japanese use a stamp: > **[【Japan-101】オンラインカジノ必勝法の紹介](https://www.japan-101.com/culture/culture_hanko_stamp.htm)** > > ようこそJapan-101オンラインカジノへ！こちらサイトはオンラインカジノについての無料情報サイトです。オンラインカジノを始めるのに知っておきたい情報が満載です。オンラインカジノで稼ぐためのカジノ必勝法も詳しく書かれてます。 ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/35 "2004-03-29T03:55:03Z")
> [@fetus](#): > > I write “Ask for ID” in the signature space on the back of my card; I never sign it. If the card is signed, that means it always has my stamp of approval on its use; if it says to ask for ID (which I’ve found that most cashiers don’t do otherwise), any cashier who actually reads the back of the card will be able to really find out if the bearer of my credit card is me. > > Am I invalidating myself? Are you invalidating yourself? No. Are you invalidating your credit card? Yup. See on the back of the card, where it says **NOT VALID UNLESS SIGNED**? Unless your name is “Ask for ID” then your card is invalid. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/36 "2004-03-29T04:07:37Z")
After all the debate, this and that, blah blah blah, it really comes down to this: If the amount of the purchase is accepted by the credit validation system, AND the credit card’s signature area is NOT blank, AND the purchaser signs the receipt (with any scribble they desire), the purchase is valid, legal, and complete (as far as the merchant is concerned). ---
**Author:** ![Danalan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@Danalan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danalan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/37 "2004-03-29T04:21:08Z")
To avoid re-use of a signature performed on a digital pad, such as described in the OP, simply include the Julian date in the signature. This makes any signature far more secure. It doesn’t have to be the Julian date, just any simple number scheme that varies. Someone trying to copy your signature would have to know what the numbers mean. Also, consistent use of coded numbers in all signatures, digital or not, pretty much exposes any forgeries – not coded, not my signature. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/38 "2004-03-29T04:40:21Z")
> [@fetus](#): > > I write “Ask for ID” in the signature space on the back of my card; I never sign it. If the card is signed, that means it always has my stamp of approval on its use; if it says to ask for ID (which I’ve found that most cashiers don’t do otherwise), any cashier who actually reads the back of the card will be able to really find out if the bearer of my credit card is me. > > Am I invalidating myself? My father and I both do this, and nobody’s ever said anything about it. The only difference is that cashiers tend to ask for our IDs more often, of course (although not by as much as you’d expect). That’s actually what I like best. In that case, I can ensure that the card’s being used by its rightful owner without seeming to be a RegisterNazi. And they almost always thank me! But what’s **really** important, at least to me, is that when I’m shown ID, I **look** to make sure it’s the same person. I’ve also been known to remark, “Hmmm…the database has a different address for you,” which prompts the customer to say, “Oh yeah; I used to live at 742 Evergreen Terrace.” Again, a non-confrontational way of making sure they’re on the up-and-up. **LolaBaby** , thank you for the reassurance! **ccwaterback** , I read the “zug” link. Fact is, I never look to see what the customer’s signing on the electronic pad. But, if people were signing pieces of paper that I had to look at, I can assure you, I’d notice if someone was drawing heiroglyphs! Plus which, the keypads at my store automatically start processing the signature if the stylus is lifted off the pad for more than two full seconds. I had to explain this to a customer who was signing his name in Japanese characters (he **was** Japanese) and didn’t get to finish. **Otto** : What **ccwaterback** said. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/39 "2004-03-29T05:26:34Z")
> [@ccwaterback](#): > > After all the debate, this and that, blah blah blah, it really comes down to this: > > If the amount of the purchase is accepted by the credit validation system, AND the credit card’s signature area is NOT blank, AND the purchaser signs the receipt (with any scribble they desire), the purchase is valid, legal, and complete (as far as the merchant is concerned). Wrong, wrong, wrong. The merchant agreement with the credit card issuer will clearly state that the card must be signed and that the clerk accepting the card for a purchase must take reasonable care to ensure that the signature on the receipt matches the signature on the card. Failure to do so may result in chargebacks to the merchant. Failing to sign your card may result in you, the consumer, being responsible for ALL charges on the card, even if they were fraudulent. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2004, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904/40 "2004-03-29T05:34:45Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Boy, are you guys going to feel silly when the sun’s about to blow up and everyone has to sign for their ticket on the space ark. What? You mean you don’t remember several years ago when this happened? And they put us on this spaceship that exactly duplicates Earth so they could move us to our new home? And they told us that we must never tell the stupid people about this because they would… Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh… :rolleyes: (with thanks to Steve Martin) [sub]Nemo? Laugh, Nemo! Nemo? Put down that baseball bat, Little Nemo…[/sub] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wont-sign-that-thing/236904.md?page=3)