# I would like to come to a conclusion on prostitution **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269 "2012-09-20T15:02:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/41 "2012-09-23T20:28:12Z")
I wonder what you consider to be ‘traficking’; the definitions differ in different countries. The Dutch definition is broad enough that it includes ‘recruiting or transporting someone for prostitution in another country’. If you give a girl a ride from Belgium to the Netherlands and she turns out to be a prostitute, you fall under the definition. I will agree with you that many working girls are either recruited (often by a sister/friend) or driven to a place to another country where they can work; usually both. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/42 "2012-09-23T20:55:06Z")
> [@polar\_bear](#): > > I wonder what you consider to be ‘traficking’; the definitions differ in different countries. The Dutch definition is broad enough that it includes ‘recruiting or transporting someone for prostitution in another country’. If you give a girl a ride from Belgium to the Netherlands and she turns out to be a prostitute, you fall under the definition. If you were talking about one country, sure. However, this is every country with legalized prostitution. [http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/its-time-to-get-serious-about-sex-trafficking-in-australia-20111012-1lkzi.html](http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/its-time-to-get-serious-about-sex-trafficking-in-australia-20111012-1lkzi.html) [http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/rights-so-divine/2012/jul/3/legalized-prostitution-australia-attracts-traffick/](http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/rights-so-divine/2012/jul/3/legalized-prostitution-australia-attracts-traffick/) > **[2012 Trafficking in Persons Report - Germany | Refworld](https://www.refworld.org/reference/annualreport/usdos/2012/en/86824)** > **[NZ criticised for sex-trafficking and slavery - NZ Herald](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nz-criticised-for-sex-trafficking-and-slavery/AAZU6IWHHOT2PFMBKJHIFEHKP4/?c_id=1&objectid=10814256)** > > Latest breaking news articles, photos, video, blogs, reviews, analysis, opinion and reader comment from New Zealand and around the World - NZ Herald > **[Human trafficking in Greece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Greece)** > > Greece was a transit, source and destination country for women and children who were subjected to human trafficking, specifically forced prostitution and conditions of forced labor for men, women, and children. Female sex trafficking victims originated primarily in Eastern Europe and former Soviet bloc countries. Traffickers used physical, emotional, and sexual abuse for coercion. Greece's European Union membership, coupled with a shared border with Turkey, meant the country saw massive flows o... > **[Taiwan\\'s human trafficking issue - Taipei Times](https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2006/11/26/2003337971)** > > Bringing Taiwan to the World and the World to Taiwan ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/43 "2012-09-23T21:54:07Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Even in the US, Nevada, but no other state, has seen sex trafficking. What? No…seriously…what? Chicago, Illinois: [3 charged, including brother and sister, with sex-trafficking](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-09-11/news/chi-3-charged-including-brother-and-sister-with-sextrafficking-20120911_1_prostitution-online-ads-chicago-police) Houston, Texas: [Last of 8 Defendants Pleads Guilty for Involvement in Local Sex-Trafficking Ring](http://www.houstonrr.org/news-room/last-of-8-defendants-pleads-guilty-for-involvement-in-local-sex-trafficking-ring/) Minnesota: [‘John’ charged with sex trafficking under new Minnesota law](http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/18852347/john-charged-with-sex-trafficking) Titusville, Florida: [Pair Accused In Child Sex Trafficking Case](http://www.wesh.com/Pair-Accused-In-Child-Sex-Trafficking-Case/-/11788876/13120788/-/10fjfwo/-/index.html) Hammond, Indiana: [Two Hammond Men Sentenced in Sex Trafficking and Prostitution Case](http://www.fbi.gov/indianapolis/press-releases/2010/ip120710.htm) New York: [Two Hammond Men Sentenced in Sex Trafficking and Prostitution Case](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/04/sex-trafficking-ring-from_n_1568348.html) New Jersey: [8 Charged in NJ Sex Trafficking Ring](http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-nj-sex-trafficking-ring-busted,0,4962757.story) New Mexico: [Feds, strippers to talk sex trafficking in NM](http://finance.yahoo.com/news/feds-strippers-talk-sex-trafficking-nm-200310066--finance.html) Pennsylvania: [Philadelphia Man Charged with Sex Trafficking of Children](http://www.fbi.gov/philadelphia/press-releases/2012/philadelphia-man-charged-with-sex-trafficking-of-children) Iowa, Nebraska, Arkansas: [Nebraska, Iowa Included In Nationwide Sex Trafficking Ring](http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/Nebraska_Iowa_Included_In_Nationwide_Sex_Trafficking_Ring__153704225.html) My mouse clicky hand is sore, so that’s where I’ll stop. So I repeat…_what?!_ ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/44 "2012-09-23T22:56:42Z")
> [@mmmbeer](#): > > I’m not suggesting anything of the sort! I am STATING that my body belongs to me and what I do with it is for me to decide. If it doesn’t belong to me, then to whom?. it belongs to you unless you sell it to someone else. Then it belongs to them. > [@](#): > > Let’s take, for example, slavery. As a consenting adult, I should be able to sell myself into slavery. However, that has been illegalized because the history of slavery has shown that in a statistically significant number of cases, the slave’s owner exceeds his bounds and commits crimes, regardless of all good intentions. When you buy yourself a slave, you get to do whatever you want with her. That’s the whole point of having a slave! ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/45 "2012-09-24T07:51:03Z")
**Sage Rat** makes a lot of false assertions, but I’d just like to single out this one. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The statistics are that countries who consider prostitution illegal have no sex trafficking I mean - wow. I read a lot of anti-sex work propaganda, and I’ve never seen anyone make this claim before. Where on earth does it come from? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/46 "2012-09-24T07:58:58Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Wouldn’t it be easier for Americans participating in this thread to examine the pros and cons of legalized prostitution in Nevada, rather than far-flung points around the globe? The problem is that Nevada isn’t a particularly good model of legal prostitution, and most of the “cons” are not down to legalisation itself but the particular model that Nevada follows. But, if you’re interested in getting a little more insight into it, [here](http://veganvixen1.wordpress.com/2011/10/08/working-at-nevada-brothels-qa/) is the blog of a longtime Nevada brothel worker. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/47 "2012-09-24T08:30:59Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > If you were talking about one country, sure. However, this is every country with legalized prostitution. > > [http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/its-time-to-get-serious-about-sex-trafficking-in-australia-20111012-1lkzi.html](http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/its-time-to-get-serious-about-sex-trafficking-in-australia-20111012-1lkzi.html) > [http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/rights-so-divine/2012/jul/3/legalized-prostitution-australia-attracts-traffick/](http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/rights-so-divine/2012/jul/3/legalized-prostitution-australia-attracts-traffick/) > [http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,,,DEU,,4fe30cc8c,0.html](http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,,,DEU,,4fe30cc8c,0.html) > [http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c\_id=1&objectid=10814256](http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10814256) > [Human trafficking in Greece - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Greece) > [Taiwan's human trafficking issue - Taipei Times](http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2006/11/26/2003337971/1) …you realize that your cites are a load of rubbish, don’t you? Did you just type sex trafficing prostitution into google and paste the results? Why don’t you explain, one by one, how each of those cites backs up your assertions? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/48 "2012-09-24T09:08:54Z")
I was once on a train trip and sat next to an older cop. He was a senior member of the force. I forget what his title was. But he was very highly placed in the police force. Like a Lieutenant or something. We were sharing a kind of small space together and we were the only two people in that section of the train and so we had about an hour in which we could talk without being interrupted and without anyone hearing what we had to say. So, I asked him about prostitution and what was so bad about it. I told him it seemed to me that it was a victimless crime. No one got hurt. Both people got what they wanted out of the exchange. So, what was the harm? To this day, I still believe there is a kind of “cop thinking” and that all police agree to believe in the same things when they join the force. There is never any debate or dissenting opinions. If one cop believes one way about an issue, you can be certain that all cops will express that same opinion - whether or not they really do believe that opinion. So, I’m pretty sure that what he told me was the “party line” or call it “cop speak”. In other words, it was what any cop would have to say about it to anyone. He began by rambling about how prostitution attracts some bad elements - such as drug dealers, people with AIDS, robbers and burglars, etc. He then made some of the standard points that most any cop will make if you ask them about prostitution. In the end, he really didn’t say anything that made any sense to me. But I listened to what he had to say and thanked him for his time. There is some truth in that people who become desperate because they are addicted to drugs can either turn to prostitution or turn to “pimping” in order to make money. People who are desperate can resort to all kinds of illegal activities that will harm others including theft, extortion, etc. But they can engage in any number of activities. Why single out prostitution? But, I still have never gotten a good answer what is wrong with prostitution if it is done in a safe and healthy kind of way? If a brothel is sanctioned by the state and health laws are enforced and regulated, what is the harm? It seems pretty obvious that it just flourishes - regardless of the law. So, why put people in jail about it? It doesn’t seem to make any sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/49 "2012-09-24T09:31:38Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > It belongs to you unless you sell it to someone else. Then it belongs to them. > > When you buy yourself a slave, you get to do whatever you want with her. That’s the whole point of having a slave! I’m really shocked that no one made the distinction between selling and renting. Big difference. And as far as getting to do “whatever you want” … that is just ridiculous. Most working women have some definite boundaries which almost always include: . You cannot harm her. You cannot beat her or use any kind of object to hit her or whip her or harm her in any way unless it is a minor kind or pain and you discuss it with her beforehand and she agrees to it. . You cannot kiss her on the lips. I’ve never understood exactly why this is so. I think it is just some distinction so that she can pretend to herself and others that something belongs to her and is private and you cannot touch it. I guess it is important for working women to believe that something is just out of bounds. It is simply not true that “anything goes”. . Basically, you cannot do anything to her or get her to do anything to you with which she is not comfortable. You must discuss anything out of the ordinary before hand and it will only happen if she agrees (and you are willing to pay extra for it). . You cannot do anything that puts her in fear or makes her feel uncomfortable and she will have no problem in telling you if something makes her feel uncomfortable. So, in summary, there are lots of things you cannot do to her and you cannot have her do to you. It is not at all like owning or renting someone. If you think that just because you pay her for 30 or 60 minutes of her time that means that “anything goes”, you are very much mistaken. Almost “nothing goes” if it is out of the ordinary unless or until you discuss it with her first and you are willing to pay for it. You either pay her or it doesn’t happen. Seems only fair to me. She may be a prostitute. But she is a still a human being and I have found that if you treat her like a human being, you can ensure that you will have a much better experience instead of acting as if you own her or you have rented her and anything goes. Most assuredly, anything does \*\*not \*\*go. ---
**Author:** ![mmmbeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mmmbeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmbeer)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/50 "2012-09-24T16:25:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by mmmbeer > You are aguing that 2 consenting adults should not be allowed to do what they want because the mafia are bad people or that in places like the Netherlands, Inspectors don’t check for papers or license or a whole host of things to make sure that the employees are there willingly. I disagree. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Let’s take, for example, slavery. As a consenting adult, I should be able to sell myself into slavery. However, that has been illegalized because the history of slavery has shown that in a statistically significant number of cases, the slave’s owner exceeds his bounds and commits crimes, regardless of all good intentions. You can’t sell yourself into slavery, so it is BS. Selling oneself into slavery has not been illegalized. Enslaving others has, but that is not the point your trying to twist out of all recognition. Enslaving someone is to take a person against their will. So, by definition, you can’t be willing to sell yourself into slavery. You could be an indentured servant, but that is different and not at all the same. So, besides this error, I can’t see what it has to do with your arguement that prostitution should be illegal because you opine the mafia are bad people? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/51 "2012-09-24T22:12:56Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > No. Opponents of legalisation often make this claim, mainly on the basis of a large increase in reported trafficking cases in the Netherlands, but there are so many other possible explanations for that increase (eg, the extraordinarily broad Dutch definition of “trafficking”, very loose reporting criteria, the crackdown on non-EU sex workers) that it simply can’t be attributed to legalisation alone. Also, the Dutch “increase” hasn’t been replicated in all other countries that have legalised or decriminalised prostitution. > > OTOH, the data don’t support the notion that these factors “vanish” with legalisation, either. And why would they: trafficking is a problem in a lot of legal industries, such as domestic work, agriculture and manufacturing. Legalisation would have the advantage of allowing trafficked persons to come forward without risking arrest on prostitution charges, but it doesn’t encourage them to come forward if they still risk deportation or simply don’t have any alternative ways to earn income. The legal status of prostitution is pretty much irrelevant as far as these issues go. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The evidence, from countries which have legalized prostitution is that when legalized, human trafficking increases. Why this is so is speculative but the great odds are a mix of the following: > > 1. When legal, the stigma over seeing a prostitute is reduced and so demand grows while as supply does not, unless you import women from elsewhere. > 2. When demand grows, that demand samples the new, legal type of prostitution and the old, illegal type of prostitution. (I will explain how illegal prostitution can be available when prostitution has been legalized after this.) In the end, the market favors illegally operating prostitutes. They are cheaper, offer more, and are more readily available. > > Now besides illegal aliens - which produces illegal prostitution even where prostitution is legal - there’s also the matter that most prostitution **can’t** be converted to legal. Once you add up all of the prostitutes who are underage, have an STD, are effectively the slave of a pimp (who is unlikely to file for a small business license), etc. a majority of prostitutes cannot be converted. Likely, the only ones who can are the ones who work for high-cost escort services and fancy brothels - which are already, effectively, legal since the police look the other way and the girls are carefully chosen and well-looked after. > > I haven’t researched the results of criminalizing the johns instead of the women, so I can’t offer an opinion between the two, but between legal or illegal, all legalization seems to do is to expand the number of people falling prey to the downsides of illegal prostitution. > > Cites at my blog: [Prostitution « Reason for a New Age](http://publius2point0.wordpress.com/2010/05/09/prostitution/) So which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/52 "2012-09-25T02:02:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So which is it? Well, read my cites and read his and see which seems more compelling. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/53 "2012-09-25T02:15:13Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Well, read my cites and read his and see which seems more compelling. Oh good! You’re back! Care to address how there all these states are arresting and convicting people for sex trafficking when there’s no sex trafficking in any US state except Nevada? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/54 "2012-09-25T03:10:17Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Well, read my cites and read his and see which seems more compelling. …compelling? Here is one example from your cites: > [@](#): > > Legalized prostitution didn’t stop Australian sexual violence against women. According to the 2004 Australian national survey, 34% of women experienced sexual violence at least once in their lifetime. [Sage Rat’s cite.](http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/rights-so-divine/2012/jul/3/legalized-prostitution-australia-attracts-traffick/) [sarcasm] Not only was legalized prostitution supposed to stop sexual violence against woman: it was also supposed to cure cancer!!! [/sarcasm] Your cites are nonsense and do not support the proposition you put forward. In other threads over the years your cites have been painstakingly deconstructed as being biased and with poor research methods and inconsistent methodologies. Your blog ignores the realities of the free market and blames the “explosive growth” of prostitution on trafficking. I just finished reading your blog post. Wow. Your conclusions are truly screwed up and not supported by the evidence. You conclude that legalizing prostitution in the United States would result in an explosive growth of trafficking Mexican illegal woman and children prostitutes? Do you actually want to attempt to defend your opinions here or should we just point and laugh at your cites from a distance? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/55 "2012-09-25T03:18:03Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Oh good! You’re back! Care to address how there all these states are arresting and convicting people for sex trafficking when there’s no sex trafficking in any US state except Nevada? There’s a difference between single, random occurrences around the nation and regular, organized criminal business. That said, I’m always perfectly willing to believe that I’m wrong, or any one particular set of data is wrong. There’s always new research to find every time you go out onto Google, and I haven’t done any new research on this in a few years. Mind, I find it suspicious that the majority of prostitutes in countries which legalize prostitution are trafficked in, but let’s see if we can confirm whether Nevada has a statistically significantly higher rate of sex trafficking. _insert an hour or so of Googling here_ I don’t think I can prove things one way or another. At the time I wrote the blog which I linked to, the only reference to sex trafficking of foreigners which I could find was the one, which specified Nevada as the primary target. How or why they came to that conclusion, I do not know. From what data is available today, something like 67% of cases in the US are of natural-born Americans, and half of the remaining were women who probably immigrated freely of their own. The Federal government’s definition of Sex Trafficking seems to amount to little more than a grandiose word for “pimping” as best I can tell (it’s not clear). And then they keep reporting their statistics for labor trafficking and sex trafficking together and not by state. So as far as the US goes from a true, overarching statistical basis, I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/56 "2012-09-25T03:32:10Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I just finished reading your blog post. Wow. Your conclusions are truly screwed up and not supported by the evidence. You conclude that legalizing prostitution in the United States would result in an explosive growth of trafficking Mexican illegal woman and children prostitutes? Do you actually want to attempt to defend your opinions here or should we just point and laugh at your cites from a distance? Disprove them, before you laugh at them. If you can find better statistics from better sources, I’ll gladly update my blog. If those statistics disprove the thesis, I’ll entirely rewrite the blog in favor of prostitution. I have no preference in terms of pro- or con-. I currently come down on the side of con- because good cite (eg. the FBI) or bad cite (some random magazine article or an anti-prostitution website), I’ve never seen any significant disparities between the numbers they give. WhyNot actually posted data, even if it was in the format of a plural of anecdotes. Historically, I’ve never seen anyone come up with anything but assertions against anything I’ve found. I’ve never seen anyone show data that the majority of prostitutes in X nation are actually legally and willingly there. Perhaps I missed those. I don’t always have time to follow threads through, but I’ve honestly not seen it yet. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/57 "2012-09-25T04:02:21Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Disprove them, before you laugh at them. If you can find better statistics from better sources, I’ll gladly update my blog. If those statistics disprove the thesis, I’ll entirely rewrite the blog in favor of prostitution. I have no preference in terms of pro- or con-. I currently come down on the side of con- because good cite (eg. the FBI) or bad cite (some random magazine article or an anti-prostitution website), I’ve never seen any significant disparities between the numbers they give. > > WhyNot actually posted data, even if it was in the format of a plural of anecdotes. Historically, I’ve never seen anyone come up with anything but assertions against anything I’ve found. I’ve never seen anyone show data that the majority of prostitutes in X nation are actually legally and willingly there. Perhaps I missed those. I don’t always have time to follow threads through, but I’ve honestly not seen it yet. …make your argument here: not on your blog. The cites that you actually posted in this thread make assertions and do not contain data. Look at this cite you provided, for [example](http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10814256): I read that and thought: WTF? From the article: > [@](#): > > It accuses New Zealand of having a small number of girls and boys, often of Maori or Pacific Island descent, who are trafficked domestically as street prostitutes. > > They can be the victim of gang trafficking rings, the report said. > > Foreign women from China and Southeast Asia are recruited to become prostitutes in New Zealand and may be at risk of coercive practices, it said. [I went to the source report, and it says this:](http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/192597.pdf) > [@](#): > > s. A small number of girls and boys, often of Maori or Paciic Islander descent, are traficked domestically to engage in street prostitution while some are victims of gangcontrolled traficking rings There are no statistics here in your cite. Every year the trafficking report comes out and posts the same old allegations but never backs it up. How many Maori or Pacific Islanders are trafficked domestically to engage in street prostitution? Where are these gang controlled trafficking rings? The report is vague nonsense and is routinely dismissed as such every time it comes out over here. So if you actually have cites that you think back up your argument: then post them here and make your case. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/58 "2012-09-25T07:16:35Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I’ve never seen anyone show data that the majority of prostitutes in X nation are actually legally and willingly there. What exactly does “legally” have to do with it? Working illegally in the sex industry, or being a sex worker illegally present in a country (which are often but not inevitably identical things) doesn’t mean that a person isn’t willingly in prostitution. As for “willingly”, it’s difficult to show that a majority of sex workers are _anything_ given the general impossibility of obtaining a random sample. But there are studies from many countries which show that even those in the categories most vulnerable to coercion often consider themselves to have a good deal more agency than you attribute to them. Here are a few examples: [ul] University of Otago (NZ) Department of Public Health, “The Impact of the Prostitution Reform Act on the Health and Safety of Sex Workers” (2007): only 4.6% of street workers say they are staying in the sex industry because they are made to work by someone else. Less than a third say they are there because they don’t know what else to do (30.1%), can’t get help to leave (17.8%) or don’t know how to leave (24.4%). The answers most commonly given are money (98.3%), pay household expenses (90%), flexible working hours (87.4%) and pay for social life/outgoing/luxuries (72.4%). [/ul] [ul]International Labour Organization, “The Demand Side of Human Trafficking in Asia: Empirical Findings” (2006): The majority of sex workers surveyed in five countries stated that they could leave sex work if they wanted to. These majorities ranged from 52% in Pakistan to 96.4% in Nepal. [/ul] [ul]Dr Nick Mai, London Metropolitan University, “Migrant Workers in the [British] Sex Industry” (2011): Only around 6% of migrant female sex workers felt they had been deceived or coerced into sex work. [/ul] These are just a few examples. Now perhaps you could provide some research (not sensationalistic newspaper articles) showing that the majority in a country are actually forced? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/59 "2012-09-25T07:18:26Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Well, read my cites and read his and see which seems more compelling. _Her_ cites, please. Analysis of claims about the Dutch trafficking rate [here](http://feministire.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/sex-trafficking-in-the-netherlands-should-we-believe-the-hype/). ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269/60 "2012-09-28T21:11:24Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Neither do I. (I’m a nurse.) > > I think it should be legalized because I’ve never heard a single argument \*against \*it that didn’t apply to “respectable” jobs like construction (“it’s physically dangerous!”) minimum wage jobs (“it’s exploiting people who think they don’t have any other choice in jobs!”) bartending (“it encourages men to spend time and money away from their wives!”) and/or nursing (“it’s icky!”). > > It’s crystal clear to me that the outlawing of prostitution has strong roots in misogyny and misandry both. It’s an attempt to keep poor women in the gutter and to force men into serial monogamy. It’s how wretched hausfraus find someone else to blame for their unhappy marriages, and rather than fixing their relationships, legally ban the ones their husbands preferred. > > Sexual slavery should absolutely be illegal, just like all slavery. It’s no more okay to force a person to have sex than it is to force a person to build an office building. But it’s no less okay, either. It’s the “slavery” part of the equation that’s the problem, not the “sexual” part. > > But prostitution? I’m in favor of legalizing it, and without even very many regulations. Background checks, STD tests, age checks…yeah, that’s pretty much it. Any more than that reeks of infantalizing grown people based on nothing more than their choice of profession. Would I like them to get health/mental health benefits? Sure would. But I’d also like to see the counter workers at GameStop and McDonald’s get the same. Not to mention nurses. 😉 > > It’s late. I’m tired, and probably didn’t phrase all this with my usual grace and delicacy. But there it is. This sums up my opinion on the issue pretty well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-come-to-a-conclusion-on-prostitution/635269.md?page=4)