I would like to give Coldfire a medal.

The BBQ Pit
41

Muffin, I understand your strong feelings, and I agree that this war is something that never should have happened.

However; the thread was not there to do anything more than honor someone who fought for his country. And, right or wrong, that is what he signed up to do. He followed orders. No one wants to go fight in a war. It’s in the vow when you sign up. You promise to defend your country against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Not who YOU decide those enemies are. Who your superiors tell you they are.

The lieutenant did his best to protect his men at the time, and probably thought he wasn’t going to make it out of there alive. The fact that he did and brought his men out with him deserves note.

He didn’t ask to be where he was, he just did the best he could. And for that, Mr. Moto honored him. Which was nice to see, as it hardly ever happens. But you come in and shit all over it, as if Lt. Chontosh himself were responsible for the war and everything that has happened there.

Those men and women fighting are NOT the enemy. You want them brought home? Me too. Let’s elect us someone who’ll bring them home. They have no choice in the matter. So quit acting as if they do.

42

In that case, Muffin, I recommend the second War Hero thread.

You should like it far more, for lots of reasons.

First of all, Senior Airman Jason Cunningham, the hero in question, wasn’t taking any lives. That wasn’t his job. Cunningham was a combat medic.

Second, the conflict was in Afghanistan, not Iraq.

Third, ten men were saved that day when Cunningham moved them, under fire, from one wounded assembly point to another, and then another. He continued to perform his duty even after he was mortally wounded himself.

I don’t create war heroes by creating these threads. Indeed, I don’t think we have war heroes anymore. These men aren’t in the newspaper or TV news. How are they a hero to anyone, in any meaningful sense?

I think they should be heroes, though. What they did is certainly heroic.

43

Ten men are alive now because of SrA Cunningham, yes? That’s what the wording of the commendation in your post said, IIRC. SrA Cunningham gave his life to guarantee the lives of ten other people. ISTM that he very possibly threw himself in the direction of/onto a grenade to make sure those other soldiers didn’t get further injured, yes?*

Being a hero doesn’t mean your name is known by everyone.

*[sub]In case anyone is wondering "Well, would he be a hero if it was just 9 people? How about 8? 7? 1, IMO, is plenty. For me, anyway. He already signed on to give his life for ~300 million anyway.[/sub]

44

I don’t want to even get into this, and I have to go to work, so this won’t be as long and articulate as I’d like, but since when have we not been able to disagree with the OP in MPSIMS? Like Reeder above, I think it’s more important to just be able to voice your opinion there. Now, if Muffin had done it in an offensive way, with lots of goat felching and kerosene drinking, then I could understand Coldfire’s motives there. But I, personally, think it’s disgusting that the SDMB would let someone get away with posting an OP of patriotic bullshit like this. (BTW, never go to the Showboat Branson Belle. The ending (God Bless America) of the show ruins everything. And all the dumb fucking hick rednecks there thought it was just the best thing ever.) Hmm, guys, why do we get planes flown into our buildings? Oh yeah, Americans are pompous assholes.

You know, there’s going to be a lot of retaliation to this, but I’m really not a fan of the whole “love it or leave it” mentality (I hate hate hate living in the south) that is going around. I’m not proud at all of my country after what’s happened in the last couple years. And I don’t think that gloating about killing random people in a war that we shouldn’t be fighting is appropriate. Just my 2 cents. Continue flaming.

45

Well, there’s a dual meaning of hero, isn’t there? Especially in our age of celebrity.

These men are heroes because they performed heroic acts, surely. However, they are not heroes in the traditional sense, as being people others admire and use as an example. Absolute nobody knows who they are.

That’s the motivation behind this series of threads for me.

46

http://greyhound.com/

Bye.

47

Reeder, I disagree wholly with your assertion that the OP in that thread was glorifying Brian Chontosh’s act, and not his qualities as a brave Marine. Also that it was glorifying in the killing of Iraqis.

There may be sailors in the Navy who have killed more Iraqis by pressing buttons on a Tomahawk console. There may be pilots in the Air Force who have killed more by dropping bombs (Theoretically speaking. I know of no actual examples)

These servicemembers, though, don’t have Navy Crosses or Air Force Crosses. We don’t give them out based on body counts.

We do, however, give them out for conspicuous examples of selfless bravery. In all of the examples I will cite, other people survive because of the quick thinking and courage shown by the awarded servicemember. And sometimes, they save these lives without taking any themselves.

The second War Heroes thread features Senior Airman Jason Cunningham, an Air Force combat medic who singlehandedly saved ten others while under fire, before being mortally wounded. He continued to perform his duties even after suffering his wounds.

I think my motivations for posting these stories are pretty clear. I don’t have any hidden agendas. I don’t buy into the rediculous notion that you have to support the war to support the troops. I’m not looking to trap anybody in embarassing rhetoric.

All I want is a little recognition for some neglected heroes.

Watch for more in the next few days.

48

Oh. Thanks. Now I can finally escape, because I didn’t realize that there was transportation out of the US.

What I meant by that was I don’t understand why some Americans are so staunchly proud of America, and want to get rid of those who aren’t. I’m perfectly fine in my current geographic location, even if I don’t care for what the people are doing. In addition, I don’t have the money to go to college anywhere but here, and I had to settle for my uh… 5th or so choice on college, because they’re giving me money to go there. (But that’s another Pit thread.) Give me 4 years to get out of college and quite a few tens of thousands of dollars (because I would want an incentive to break all connections with my friends/family) and I’ll uproot just for you.

I do appreciate the fact that you have saved me 5 seconds of typing by giving me that link , though.

49

In and of itself, an entirely laudable motivation. Why should such an eminently desireable thing seem tainted, why should it arouse suspicion? I think you know as well as I.

Because the people who oppose my political goals and views have not the slightest hesitation to wrap themselves in patriotic bunting at every opportunity. Nor have they any compunction about slandering the patriotism of thier opposition. You know as well as I how often the Bushiviks laud our fighting forces for thier courage, nobility, and virtue, pouring praise over thier heads while standing just close enough to be sure that some splashes on them.

Why? Because it works, it works like a charm, it never fails. One would have to be entirely dense not to notice that your posts tend toward a very distinct political viewpoint, nothing wrong with that. But if you are offended by skepticism, you have to look to your allies.

Al-Jazeera and Fox News are both telling the truth, as best they can.

America is a corrupt, imperialist power bent on ruling the ME and its resources, and on the oppression and destruction of Islamic pride and power. America is the noblest endeavor of mankind, seeking only virtue and freedom, battling the forces of darkness to bring freedom and democracy. Both of these statements are entirely factual, so far as practical effect is concerned.

Our enemies don’t “hate our freedom”, they are not even cognizant of our freedom, they have no standards by which to judge it. They hate us, and they have a list of grievances a mile long, some entirely valid and some utter hogwash.

If it is humanity and its capacity for heroism you seek to praise, then aren’t you obligated to laud the courage of a man who attacks an armored vehicle full of the best trained, best equipped soldiers on the face of the Earth? Can you look me right in the monitor and tell me that a post lauding the courage and conviction of Achmed bin Freedomhater would not offend you?

50

[QUOTE=chaoticdonkey]
(I hate hate hate living in the south)

[QUOTE]

Dumbass. Have you bought your bus ticket yet?

51

Imagine that the US closes in on some insurgents tomorrow, and in the middle of the battle, one Iraqi comes out and manages to fire a series of rocket grenades in such a way as to kill 20 US soldiers before the insurgent is himself killed.

Now imagine that someone comes on the boards the next day, posting about this insurgent as a war hero, lauding his bravery under fire, and people talk about how what he did is like something out of a video game.

What would be your response to this?

Daniel

52

Mmmhmm, sure did. :rolleyes: As much as I would like to move, I am certainly staying here for the next 4 years, because, like I said, I’m going to college here, as I don’t have the money to pay for it without scholarships, and I got a great offer from a university in Southern Arkansas, because my parents are contributing zero money to my college fund. Oh well, I’ll get over it, but that seriously limits my college options.

I’m sorry if I have the ability to put up with things I don’t like, and that you’re an intolerant bastard.

(Sorry, been drinking. Tomorrow may be more coherent. (Ooh, I used a big word! (And triple parentheses.)))

53

As a casual student of military history, I can certainly be impressed with the bravery shown by soldiers in any armed force, even if they’re fighting on an opposite side than my own. I’ve always respected Erwin Rommel, for example.

It’s much harder to respect men fighting as insurgents. It’s harder to do so because they usually don’t fight as an organized force subject to and bound by the rules of war and the constraints of the Geneva Convention. History has many examples of these insurgents committing unspeakable acts of violence, unconstrained by any sense of justice or concern toward civilians.

Admiring their bravery would be like admiring the bravery of a particularly brazen career criminal, who’s cunning and courage are put to the service of eluding police and committing more crimes.

54

Huh. I’m a little confused: even if the insurgent in my example hadn’t broken any rule of the Geneva Convention, you still wouldn’t respect him, and would still have problems with someone coming onto the boards and lauding him as a hero for killing 20 US soldiers?

This would be because he was a member of a force that had committed unspeakable acts of violence unconstrained by any sense of justice or concern toward civilians?

Would this be a good point to bring up Abu Ghraib?

I mean, not to be overly snarky, but if we’re going to disqualify an insurgent from heroship because of atrocities committed by other insurgents, I think we’d have to disqualify American soldiers for the same reason.

Sure, Abu Ghraib != intentionally bombing civilians, I agree–but Abu Ghraib is still the site of American atrocities, the site of unspeakable acts of violence unconstrained by any sense of justice.

Daniel

55

You mean like the French Resistance?

56

I said harder. Not impossible.

57

And Abu Ghraib actually illustrates this point well. This is a touchy point, I know. Please bear with me.

American soldiers are constrained by military law. And their actions at Abu Ghraib are being punished under that law. Whether the extent of said punishment is enough is a matter of fair debate. But to say the soldiers were unconstrained is obviously untrue.

They’re constrained in a way that the Iraqi insurgents aren’t. They feel no constraints when they want to behead a captive, for instance.

58

Not to mention those blasted Colonials, don’t you know. Ducking behind trees, not wearing any sort of proper uniform, not conducting themselves in a civilized fashion at all! Insurgents, you understand, trying to subvert the King’s good order.

59

I refer the honorable gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago.

60

My first reaction to your first answer was “Ah, I see.” Thank you for adding this one; now I understand your view better.

Please correct me if I’m wrong: my understanding is that the man responsible for the beheading of Mr. Berg is neither an Iraqi nor a member of their resistance. He is a terrorist. Nitpicking, to be sure, but I think an important distinction.