I would like to give Coldfire a medal.

[Mr.Moto]

I have already said, Mtgman that insurgents may be worthy of honor and respect in some circumstances. This would be so especially if they were resisting an oppressive and tyrannical force. The French and Dutch resistance would be examples of this.

It would, as always, depend on the circumstances.

@Mtgman

Tell me why the widows and orphans of the men killed by your “heroes” should respect the acts which cost them their husbands and fathers. Because those men were wearing uniforms and their loved ones weren’t?

I’m not going to tell you that. Why should a German war widow feel any love for the U.S. Army, even sixty years on? It would be ludicrous to ask her to have any.

Like it or not, though, wars have sides. The mere fact that you have sympathy or empathy for the victims of war on the other side doesn’t change that fact. And it shouldn’t affect the honor and respect you show the servicemembers who are sent into battle for your side.

[Testy]

I’ll try to respond to your points in order.

War is the only circumstance in which killing another person is considered by some to be unquestionably morally acceptable, and that only because war makes a necessity of killing. Citing someone for killing a large number of people, and holding that up as a noteworthy example of the best of the human spirit, is making a virtue out of necessity. And what is necessary is not always what is good.

I will not argue your point about war being the only time a killing is morally acceptable. I personally can think of other circumstances but this is not the debate for that. And yes, war does make a necessity of killing, pretty much by definition. Some author whos name I forget said that “the purpose of an army is to kill people and break things.” I believe he was correct.
Nevertheless, the people we’re talking about are not being cited for how many people they killed. They are being cited (in the first case) for foiling an enemy ambush and saving the lives of their group. This was done at great personal risk to themselves. IOW, the military does not use bodycounts as a basis for awarding medals.

I did not vote for Bush in 2000, and when his administration began mobilizing for war in Afghanistan and Iraq, I involved myself in organizing against both those wars. Please demonstrate to me how, as a “person of my country”, I had any role in assigning the US military the task of invading those two nations.

OK, I understand your point that you personally had nothing to do with sending those people to war in either Afghanistan or Iraq and did everything you could to stop it. Nonetheless, your (and my) government is responsible for the war. Your voting against it and continued opposition do not affect the government’s ability to make decisions in your name. (N.B. I am assuming you are American. If this is not the case then I’ll have to re-think this.)

You’ve reached a conclusion unsupported by my posts. I have not said that a society based on competition is a permanent phenomenon - on the contrary, I believe that competitive societies are a historically transitory form of human society and can be actively done away with, thereby eliminating both the basis and the need for war.

This sounds great but I have doubts about the implementation. A world of competing societies may not be inevitable, I certainly couldn’t answer that question. OTOH, right now, and for the foreseeable future, I think you would agree that we are stuck with competition. If this is the case then war is going to happen. As war is presently inevitable, we should honor those who excel at this admittedly distasteful but necessary job. That sounds very “1-2-3-ish” I know, but I would personally prefer to keep the discussion limited to the current situation rather than more speculative scenarios.

FWIW, I personally despise the war in Iraq and support that in Afghanistan so I guess we agree on the Iraq part anyway.

Best regards

Testy

[Mtgman]

@Mr. Moto

Why should a German war widow feel any love for the U.S. Army, even sixty years on? It would be ludicrous to ask her to have any.

But you already have. You declared the actions in the “war heroes” threads to be universal examples of honor and bravery. This is no different from telling those Iraqi widows they should feel respect for and honor the person who killed their husbands. If the action was an objectively honorable and brave thing the Iraqi widow should respect and honor it as you claim more Americans should.

@Mr. Moto

Like it or not, though, wars have sides. The mere fact that you have sympathy or empathy for the victims of war on the other side doesn’t change that fact. And it shouldn’t affect the honor and respect you show the servicemembers who are sent into battle for your side.

I’ll make my own decisions as to how I interact with servicemembers, thanks.

Enjoy,
Steven

[Mr.Moto]

@Mtgman

I’ll make my own decisions as to how I interact with servicemembers, thanks.

I’ll spare you the time to look for one. You can decide how to deal with me.

After all, I’m a five-year enlisted Navy veteran, released from active duty in 1998 and from the inactive reserves in 2001. I’m not a combat veteran, but I did play an active role in support of Operations Sharp Guard and Deny Flight in the former Yugoslavia. These operations enforced a no-fly zone and enforced economic and weapons sanctions in order to protect Bosnian Muslims and put pressure on Bosnian Serbs in the mid-1990’s.

For this duty, and for other work I performed, I was given some medals myself. It’s nothing like a Navy Cross, but I was given the Navy Achievement Medal on three separate occasions during my five-year active duty period. This medal is given for superior performance of duty. To earn three in your first enlistment is a rare feat.

In addition to this, I was awarded the Navy Good Conduct Medal, the National Defense Service Medal, the Armed Forces Service Medal, the Navy Sea Service Deployment Ribbon, the Navy and Marine Overseas Service Ribbon, and the NATO Medal.

I was also authorized to wear the Joint Meritorious Unit Award and the Battle “E”. These are unit awards, given when commands perform particularly well as a team in exercise or operational conditions.

My duty stations, after training, were the Tactical Support Center at Sigonella, Sicily, where I performed mission support for P3C aircraft squadrons (that’s where we did the Sharp Guard and Deny Flight work) and the guided missile cruiser USS Monterey, where I operated the Tomahawk cruise missile.

When I separated from the Navy, I had risen in rank to E-5, Petty Officer Second Class. That’s equal in rank to an army buck sergeant. Actually, I had made that paygrade at about the two year mark.

In short, I was by no means a war hero, like those I’m mentioning in the other threads. However, I was a good sailor who did my duty very well.

And how was I rewarded for my diligence? The tax return for my last full year in the service shows an income of about $18,000 a year. Now, a little more money came my way in the form of an untaxed housing allowance, but that only amounted to about $300 a month at the time.

All a medal is, really, is a token of thanks from the government for services rendered. It’s a recognition of the sacrifice made by men and women in what can sometimes seem a thankless job. These medals could be lesser ones like a Good Conduct Medal, or grand ones like the Navy Cross or Medal of Honor. All they are are a measure of gratitude.

And I have to say, those who would deny a servicemember these bits of metal and cloth, accompanied with a signed citation, just seem like ingrates to me.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Mr. Moto

And I have to say, those who would deny a servicemember these bits of metal and cloth, accompanied with a signed citation, just seem like ingrates to me.

In the strictest sense of the term, I am an ingrate: I hate the fact that our military is so big; I hate that so much of our country’s resources goes to supporting it; I hate that it’s so often our first tool of international diplomacy.

The military often justifies itself by talking about how it protects our freedoms, but I don’t see that: indeed, I see just the opposite happening, inasmuch as overreliance of the military as a tool of international diplomacy builds resentment against me around the world. I want our military to be reduced to true defensive levels: I’ll be grateful to military personnel who stop a physical invasion of the US, but not to military personnel who participate in unnecessary foreign adventures.

I can respect individual military people, both US and Iraqi, and I can even respect military personnel on either side who feel forced into killing dozens of people. But I’m not going to be grateful to either side, and I’m not going to glorify the actions of either side.

If we’re going to hand out gratitude toward the underpaid–if we’re going to hand out medals–I’d far rather see them go to public school teachers, who actually perform a necessary job.

Daniel

[Mr.Moto]

Shodan was right. We don’t respect our servicemembers, not really. We don’t pay them enough; we stretch them too damn thin on deployments.

Their housing and medical care are substandard. And before you blame Bush and Rumsfeld for this, I can assure you that this was the case in Clinton’s Navy as well.

And to top it all off, we won’t even recognize their heroism with two damn lines in the newspaper.

Yet we expect them to perform, and do so with heroism. And amazingly enough, they do.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Mr. Moto

Yet we expect them to perform, and do so with heroism. And amazingly enough, they do.

I, and several other people (the majority of this country, I believe) wish they would STOP performing. I wish people would just stop signing up for the military.

Daniel

[asterion]

@Mr. Moto

For this duty, and for other work I performed, I was given some medals myself. It’s nothing like a Navy Cross, but I was given the Navy Achievement Medal on three separate occasions during my five-year active duty period. This medal is given for superior performance of duty. To earn three in your first enlistment is a rare feat.

In addition to this, I was awarded the Navy Good Conduct Medal, the National Defense Service Medal, the Armed Forces Service Medal, the Navy Sea Service Deployment Ribbon, the Navy and Marine Overseas Service Ribbon, and the NATO Medal.

I was also authorized to wear the Joint Meritorious Unit Award and the Battle “E”. These are unit awards, given when commands perform particularly well as a team in exercise or operational conditions.

I’ve tried tracking these down on Google, and it’s a bit tricker than I thought it would be. If you don’t mind me asking, how many of those are individual awards (based on your personal record), how many are unit awards, and how many are awards given to everyone for being in a certain place at a certain time?

Don’t get me wrong, I understand your point perfectly and agree with you. It’s just that there are so many awards, deployment ribbons, and the like that it’s impossible for a guy like me to know them all. Heck, I can barely tell the well-known medals apart; I’d never be able to read someone’s awards just by their ribbons. I’ve only ever seen one Purple Heart outside a museum, for example–it was given, I believe posthumously, to a somewhat distant relative of mine shot down over Europe during WWII. (I’ve never exactly been close to my extended family; a product mainly of geographical seperation, but with other reasons as well.) For that matter, I think that’s the only military decoration I’ve seen outside a museum. If Mom or Grandfather had awards or ribbons from their time in the military, I’ve never seen them or don’t remember having seen them.

[Mr.Moto]

The majority of this country? That’s just not nearly realistic.

Why don’t you put together a pacifist presidential ticket, and see how far you’ll get.

I don’t know if you recall, but there was a little incident not three years where TERRORISTS flew big airplanes into our cities and killed thousands of Americans. Do you really think voters have forgotten that little fact?

I certainly haven’t. I have to drive past the part of the Pentagon every day where the huge hole used to be. My office filled with smoke that day. My wife was beside herself for awhile with panic, because she knew just how close we both were to it all.

So, wish all you want, Left Hand of Dorkness. I’ll continue to depend on men and women of the caliber of Brian Chontosh, and Britt Slabinski, and Jason Cunningham. It’s the less suicidal course.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Mr. Moto

The majority of this country? That’s just not nearly realistic.

I spoke carefully, and will refer you to the latest polls on Iraq.

So, wish all you want, Left Hand of Dorkness. I’ll continue to depend on men and women of the caliber of Brian Chontosh, and Britt Slabinski, and Jason Cunningham. It’s the less suicidal course.

No it’s not: the less suicidal course is not going on cavalier adventures around the world, unsupported by other nations, and arousing hatred of our country. Our present military strategy endangers me; it doesn’t protect me.

Daniel

[Mtgman]

When did this become about compensation for service? Medals aren’t compensation for service. You can’t eat a medal, nor are they acceptable as rent payments. A medal never cured a toothache or delivered a baby. The military’s issues with providing these services or compensation/benefits capable of allowing servicemembers to find those services on their own is completely seperate from deciding if the acts in question represent universal “heroism”.

LHoD, I have never in my life wished less people would sign up for military service. I have wished we lived in a world where militaries were unnecessary, but the reality is such that they are necessary.

My beef with this whole thing has been the idea that acts which are the lesser of evils are being touted as great deeds. If anyone here remembers all the “moral connundrum” threads from GD a while back “Would you kill a baby if it meant averting 9/11” or somesuch titles, my feelings on the issue is that the lesser of evils can be reasonably hailed for preventing the greater of evils, but not as an act worthy of respect in and of itself.

Enjoy,
Steven

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Mtgman

LHoD, I have never in my life wished less people would sign up for military service. I have wished we lived in a world where militaries were unnecessary, but the reality is such that they are necessary.

I strongly disagree that our military is necessary in its current size, configuration, and location. If our military were only as big as the next two largest militaries combined, then I’d be a lot happier; I’d like to see fewer enlistments until we’ve managed to right-size the military.

Daniel

[Mr.Moto]

No, it’s not about compensation. It’s about gratitude. Which has been sorely lacking.

It’s been conspicuously lacking among some participants in this thread, who would deny servicemembers even these small tokens of thanks. It’s been lacking among American society in general, and the American media, who won’t pay due tribute to these genuine heroes.

I used to hear this line about teachers while I was in, as well. And it used to grate on my nerves then, as it does now. Not because I don’t like teachers. My aunt and by brother both teach, and I value education a great deal. But we all have a part to play in a working society. A teacher is a valuable part. So is a soldier or a sailor.

Are you implying, LHoD, that a teacher is a more worthwhile human being than a sailor, and thus deserves more money? You certainly wouldn’t be the first person who made that argument to my face. And I can certainly accept a salary difference, but I can’t accept some notion that servicemembers are less worthy human beings.

Which brings me around again to my small tribute, which I’m amazed has offended anyone. I’ve certainly tried to go about it in an inoffensive way, even choosing to post the threads in MPSIMS so they won’t become too heated. It’s even inoffensive to the majority on this board, which is notoriously liberal.

If it bothers you, I can only conclude that it’s your problem, and that it goes far deeper than just being concerned with language in a citation. It’s an issue with American society in general, and on that score I’m unable to help you out.

[silenus]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

If we’re going to hand out gratitude toward the underpaid–if we’re going to hand out medals–I’d far rather see them go to public school teachers, who actually perform a necessary job.

Daniel

Speaking as a teacher, I decline. Without the military, all the teaching I can do would be for naught. I begrudge the military not a penny of their budget, and I recommend it as a career to my kids. Or at the very least a way to get some training.

[Mr.Moto]

@asterion

I’ve tried tracking these down on Google, and it’s a bit tricker than I thought it would be. If you don’t mind me asking, how many of those are individual awards (based on your personal record), how many are unit awards, and how many are awards given to everyone for being in a certain place at a certain time?

No trouble at all.

The Navy Achievement Medal is a comparatively lower level award. However, like I said, I was awarded three of them. According to the Navy:

When Awarded For Professional Achievement

The act or service must clearly exceed that which is normally required or expected, considering the individual’s grade or rate, training, and experience; and it must be an important contribution of benefit to the United States and the naval service.

When Awarded For Leadership Achievement

The act or service must be noteworthy; it must be sufficiently sustained to demonstrate a high state of development (if for a specific achievement, it must be of such merit as to earn singular recognition); and, it must reflect most creditably on the efforts of the individual towards the accomplishment of the unit mission.

The Navy Good Conduct Medal is awarded on a selective basis to recognize three years of continuous active duty, above average conduct and proficiency by enlisted service members in the regular Navy or U.S. Naval Reserve.

Those are personal awards. I also wear two unit awards.

The Joint Meritorious Unit Award is a unit participation ribbon, requiring results well beyond outstanding accomplishment of a unit’s normally assigned and expected mission. Qualifying achievements must occur during one of the following conditions and should be operational in nature:

During action in combat with an armed enemy of the United States.
In a declared national emergency situation.
Under extraordinary circumstances that involve national interests.

The Battle “E” recognizes a ship for superior performance in exercises and a day-to-day demonstration of excellence.

The other awards I wear are all campaign or service medals or ribbons.

[Mr.Moto]

War Heroes V posted.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Mr. Moto

Are you implying, LHoD, that a teacher is a more worthwhile human being than a sailor, and thus deserves more money? You certainly wouldn’t be the first person who made that argument to my face. And I can certainly accept a salary difference, but I can’t accept some notion that servicemembers are less worthy human beings.

Oh, hell no, that’s not what I’m saying. I also don’t think that teachers are more worthwhile human beings than telephone marketers. I think they do a more important job, though. And I think they do a more important job than do soldiers who fight in unnecessary foreign adventures that turn international opinion against us and needlessly endanger me.

Which brings me around again to my small tribute, which I’m amazed has offended anyone.

Did you see my last post on the previous page? It wasn’t your posts that bothered me; it was the posts of other people who trivialized the deaths of twenty humans by comparing them to Wheaties commercials and video games.

Daniel

[Mr.Moto]

Gotcha, LHoD. And I can’t defend that either. War is no game.

I have to say, though, I’m disturbed by Mtgman characterization of military service as a necessary evil.

My military service was honorable. While posted to Sigonella, I participated directly in an operation that protected the lives of Bosnian Muslims, and accelerated the peace process there.

For this work, I was recognized many times for superior performance.

My service was not an evil deed, however necessary, and I resent the implication that it was. And I especially resent the implication that other servicemembers, far more heroic than I ever was, are going to be casually brushed off as “necessary evils” as well.

It’s the same mistake anti-war folks made after Vietnam, when they called the returning soldiers “baby killers”.

You all have a snapshot of my military service. What there do I have to be ashamed of? What do any of the men in my threads have to be ashamed of?

[Mtgman]

@Mr. Moto

My service was not an evil deed, however necessary, and I resent the implication that it was. And I especially resent the implication that other servicemembers, far more heroic than I ever was, are going to be casually brushed off as “necessary evils” as well.

It’s the same mistake anti-war folks made after Vietnam, when they called the returning soldiers “baby killers”.

If that is how you percieve my posts in this thread, or my opinion on this topic in general, then we’ve got a serious failure to communicate. I have no time today to spend on the boards and I don’t anticipate much in the near future, so I guess this is as far as I can go towards clearing this up at the moment. Perhaps some time in the future we can resolve this issue.

Enjoy,
Steven

[Mr.Moto]

Fair enough. Perhaps I was reading too much into it.