# I would like to see a religion vs. atheism debate... **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 25, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-see-a-religion-vs-atheism-debate/689241 "2014-05-25T17:38:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-see-a-religion-vs-atheism-debate/689241/1 "2014-05-25T17:38:39Z")
…between these two guys: [An Atheist Defends Religion: Why Humanity is Better Off with Religion Than Without It by Bruce Sheiman](http://www.amazon.com/An-Atheist-Defends-Religion-Humanity/dp/1592578543) and: [God Wants You to be an Atheist by Dr. Gary Whittenberger](http://www.godwantsyoutobeanatheist.com/home.php) They both appear to be serious, even the second guy. Pro-religion atheists I’ve heard of. Plato. Winston Churchill. I idly wondered if there had ever been a case of the converse, did some googling, and darned if I didn’t find it… ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-see-a-religion-vs-atheism-debate/689241/2 "2014-05-25T18:12:23Z")
Plato wasn’t an atheist, at least not if the Socratic dialogues are a good guide to his thought. ---
**Author:** ![Flywheel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Flywheel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flywheel)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-see-a-religion-vs-atheism-debate/689241/3 "2014-05-25T18:25:03Z")
“God exists, but I don’t believe in him.” -Jean Baudrillard ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-see-a-religion-vs-atheism-debate/689241/4 "2014-05-25T18:29:46Z")
so i guess if it made people feel better to believe in fairy tales the first author would endorse it. oh wait, he did… ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-see-a-religion-vs-atheism-debate/689241/5 "2014-05-26T02:37:46Z")
> [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](#): > > . . . Pro-religion atheists I’ve heard of. Plato. Winston Churchill. I idly wondered if there had ever been a case of the converse, did some googling, and darned if I didn’t find it… I can see how it might work: “Okay, go ahead, and presume there is no God. Now, see where that leads. If you don’t like it, then re-consider the premise.” Or, “Throw away all pre-conceived ideas, and do the basic research for yourself. Make up your own mind, based solely on the evidence.” Many Christians are authority-based…but not all. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-see-a-religion-vs-atheism-debate/689241/6 "2014-05-26T02:44:05Z")
There is no debate. Atheists have little to complain or argue about religion. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-see-a-religion-vs-atheism-debate/689241/7 "2014-05-26T05:44:40Z")
Shouldn’t this thread be under “Great Debates” or is this issue settled? Reported. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-see-a-religion-vs-atheism-debate/689241/8 "2014-05-26T06:44:23Z")
It struck me as more of a MPSIMSy thread. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-see-a-religion-vs-atheism-debate/689241/9 "2014-05-26T15:51:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I can see how it might work: “Okay, go ahead, and presume there is no God. Now, see where that leads. If you don’t like it, then re-consider the premise.” > > Or, “Throw away all pre-conceived ideas, and do the basic research for yourself. Make up your own mind, based solely on the evidence.” > > Many Christians are authority-based…but not all. Yes, but…this guy appears to be saying, seriously, that God exists but _wants us to be atheists_ (kind of a catch 22 now that I think about it). The notion that God actively desires disbelief in Himself is being advanced. It looks like something genuinely new under the sun… > [@Little\_Pig](#): > > Shouldn’t this thread be under “Great Debates” or is this issue settled? > Reported. Only if those two gentlemen actually came here and had the debate. Or some Dopers stand in for them. It seems unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-see-a-religion-vs-atheism-debate/689241/10 "2014-05-26T16:44:56Z")
Ever see two Canadians at a four way stop? “Oh, no! you first” “No please! After you.” ---
**Author:** ![Pixel\_Dent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Pixel\_Dent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixel_Dent)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-see-a-religion-vs-atheism-debate/689241/11 "2014-05-26T20:21:21Z")
> [@Little\_Pig](#): > > Shouldn’t this thread be under “Great Debates” or is this issue settled? > Reported. I think you misunderstood the OP. Now if Misters Sheiman and Whittenberger actually decided to debate on this forum that would certainly belong in Great Debates. Simply musing that the debate would be interesting isn’t in itself a debate, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-see-a-religion-vs-atheism-debate/689241/12 "2014-05-27T01:25:40Z")
> [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](#): > > Yes, but…this guy appears to be saying, seriously, that God exists but _wants us to be atheists_ (kind of a catch 22 now that I think about it). The notion that God actively desires disbelief in Himself is being advanced. It looks like something genuinely new under the sun… . . . Clarified that way…yeah. I can’t say I’ve ever seen anything quite like it. It smacks just a little of Zen. “Brother Jen said to God, ‘I believe in you.’ God smacked Brother Jen on the forehead. Brother Jan said to God, ‘I have faith in you.’ God slapped Brother Jan on the knuckles. Brother Jun said to God, ‘I doubt your existence.’ God gave brother Jun the noogies, and a nipple-twister for good measure. But Brother Jin said, ‘Hello? Is anyone there? I guess not.’ And God nodded sagely and left Brother Jin unmolested.” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-see-a-religion-vs-atheism-debate/689241/13 "2014-05-27T05:10:31Z")
> [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](#): > > Yes, but…this guy appears to be saying, seriously, that God exists but _wants us to be atheists_ (kind of a catch 22 now that I think about it). The notion that God actively desires disbelief in Himself is being advanced. It looks like something genuinely new under the sun… Really? Because I’ve been considering the idea for some time now, ever since my son declared that he doesn’t believe in God (I’m a believer, and my wife’s an atheist; in this particular issue, he took her side). I mean, God, being God, doesn’t actually \*need \*us to believe in him, and if the human race is better off without religion - something that can definitely be argued - wouldn’t God be in favor of that? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-see-a-religion-vs-atheism-debate/689241/14 "2014-05-27T06:27:34Z")
But if so…wouldn’t God either stay out of affairs entirely, as in the deist notion of winding up the clock and then just letting it run, or, if intervention is necessary, doing it secretly? (Like Superman rescuing people at super-speed, so no one actually observes it being done?) If this is what God did, then no religious doctrine can be depended on: they would all be human constructs, no one any more valid than any other. But if that’s the case…what reason do we have to imagine a God of any sort, at all? The very concept would have no foundation. There seems to be no way of knowing. Maybe the “Master Computer” is astonished that we have gone so far awry in deducing its existence. Or maybe the “Great Trickster” is laughing his ass off at the vast and complex theological edifices we have erected. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-see-a-religion-vs-atheism-debate/689241/15 "2014-05-27T06:38:53Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > But if so…wouldn’t God either stay out of affairs entirely, as in the deist notion of winding up the clock and then just letting it run, or, if intervention is necessary, doing it secretly? (Like Superman rescuing people at super-speed, so no one actually observes it being done?) > > If this is what God did, then no religious doctrine can be depended on: they would all be human constructs, no one any more valid than any other. > > But if that’s the case…what reason do we have to imagine a God of any sort, at all? The very concept would have no foundation. > > There seems to be no way of knowing. Maybe the “Master Computer” is astonished that we have gone so far awry in deducing its existence. Or maybe the “Great Trickster” is laughing his ass off at the vast and complex theological edifices we have erected. Maybe religion was something we needed in the past, but we’re matured enough, as a species, that now it’s just a crutch. Maybe it’s time for God to send us off to college. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-would-like-to-see-a-religion-vs-atheism-debate/689241/16 "2014-05-27T09:00:13Z")
> [@Flywheel](#): > > “God exists, but I don’t believe in him.” -Jean Baudrillard “Dear God, save us from the people who believe in you.” – Post-9/11 graffiti