# I wrote a gun control Op/Ed for my student newspaper. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2007, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039 "2007-08-18T07:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/1 "2007-08-18T07:15:52Z")
As it is my own work, I am opting to publish it in its entirety here. I am looking for opinions, good, bad and ugly. While ordinarily I would submit this in IMHO, this is a bit of a controversial topic, so have at it. > [@](#): > > Now that we have a few months of separation from the events of that horrible day at Virginia Tech, perhaps we can speak dispassionately about an issue that was raised in the wake of that tragedy: possession of guns at universities by people legally permitted to carry them. > > ``` > It is a policy at most, if not all, universities in Pennsylvania that students, regardless of status, are not to carry any sort of weapons on campus. With regard to Shippensburg’s policy, it is plainly stated in the Swataney, Shippensburg’s student handbook, that “No person shall possess or use dangerous weapons”, with several items explicitly named such as knives and guns. While I am cognizant of the desire to maintain an orderly and controlled environment for students to focus on academics and pursue their future, I think that this policy is naïve and shortsighted. > > I am a gun owner. As the student body goes, I have found this to be a rarity, to the point that in one of my classes I was the only one to raise my hand when asked if anybody owned guns. This revelation was followed by an audible gasp from the other students, followed by the inevitable “don’t shoot me” jokes. While I find that gun possession and ownership is nothing to laugh at, I can understand the macabre humor involved. The knowledge that I owned guns made people nervous. The irony is that the vast majority of the student body lives off-campus, and that outside of those illusory “walls” approximately 7% of the population of Pennsylvania is licensed to carry a concealed weapon. Think about that for a moment. Seven out of every 100 people off-campus, or approximately one in ten people you speak to, are statistically likely to be carrying a weapon. The average student at Shippensburg University that lives off-campus almost certainly passes a person carrying a weapon every day, and yet they do not walk around in terror for their lives everywhere they go. It speaks of some fundamental disconnect between “protected” environs like universities and the “real world”, where such things are normal, albeit uncommon. > > I am also a holder of a concealed carry permit. I have chosen to bear the responsibility of carrying a weapon on my person for the purposes of defending myself and others, including my wife and five-year-old son. I have been vetted by the sheriff of Cumberland County and have been deemed suitable to handle that responsibility. I am also in the military, and I have been vetted by the United States government and its assorted agencies. While my credentials may be superficially superior to those of others that does not mean that someone with lesser credentials should be rejected. Quite the contrary- your average citizen has far more mundane credentials and is equally suitable for obtaining a permit. > > This brings me to the main point: as a member of society properly vetted to carry a concealed weapon wherever I go (with the notable exceptions of elementary/high schools and courthouses, and of course Shippensburg University), why am I forbidden to carry that same weapon in a place that is populated by adults? With few exceptions, all students of Shippensburg University are at or above the age of majority, and only those properly vetted and over the age of 21 would be permitted to carry a weapon in any case. We are not talking about children here; we are talking about people that are recognized by all as being capable of making rational and informed decisions. Why, then, are we so intent upon treating them as children? > > I believe that people legally permitted to carry concealed weapons should be permitted to carry them on campus among their adult, responsible peers. I believe that such permission will act as a deterrent of other people who wish to indiscriminately murder helpless people. I also believe that it is the policy of forbidding legal possession of concealed weapons that makes people helpless in the first place. Would someone have been able to stop the Virginia Tech killer had they been armed? It would be dishonest of me to say unequivocally that it would have happened that way. At the same time, it is equally dishonest to say that the prohibition on weapons carried by people permitted to carry them was effective. The people at Virginia Tech were targets, defenseless human beings. Is it reasonable that they were forbidden to defend themselves? Of course not. Yet that is the net effect of such a broad prohibition. > > In conclusion, I realize that such a stance is controversial and that reasonable people can disagree. However, with a blanket proscription there is no room for reason. There is no discussion. It is my intent to start a dialogue on this topic, or barring that to make people think, at a minimum. As college students, isn’t that what it’s all about? > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/2 "2007-08-18T07:23:15Z")
What makes you think that the presence of armed people will deter a crazy man? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/3 "2007-08-18T07:30:06Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] What makes you think that the presence of armed people will deter a crazy man? [/QUOTE] Perhaps you might choose to read this part of it: > [@](#): > > Would someone have been able to stop the Virginia Tech killer had they been armed? It would be dishonest of me to say unequivocally that it would have happened that way. At the same time, it is equally dishonest to say that the prohibition on weapons carried by people permitted to carry them was effective. The people at Virginia Tech were targets, defenseless human beings. Is it reasonable that they were forbidden to defend themselves? Of course not. Yet that is the net effect of such a broad prohibition. I did not deign to presume that a person carrying a gun would have deterred a crazy person. I simply pointed out that deterrence never had a chance because of the prohibition on guns. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/4 "2007-08-18T07:35:16Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] What makes you think that the presence of armed people will deter a crazy man? [/QUOTE] It does seem the VTech killer had no interest in preserving his _own_ life, but I suppose a case could be made that, had armed students or staff been able to return fire, the shooter would have killed fewer people. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/5 "2007-08-18T07:39:16Z")
I would rephrase the following: > [@](#): > > outside of those illusory “walls” approximately 7% of the population of Pennsylvania is licensed to carry a concealed weapon. Think about that for a moment. Seven out of every 100 people off-campus, or approximately one in ten people you speak to, are statistically likely to be carrying a weapon. Seven out of 100 is closer to one in 14, not one in 10, and don’t say “statistically likely to be carrying a weapon” unless just having a CCP means a 50%+ chance a holder is packing all the time. The “think about that a moment” is a touch condescending, possibly not the best tack with university students. I suggest: > [@](#): > > outside of those illusory “walls” approximately 7% of the population of Pennsylvania is licensed to carry a concealed weapon. Leave this campus and pass 14 people on the street and one may be carrying a concealed weapon. Being aware of this fact should not cause an attitude of fear, nor should the insanity of one cause us to reflexively restrict the freedom of the many, many more who do not and never will threaten us. Actually, I can see where I’d rewrite large parts of the essay, throwing in some references to the facts and illusions of safety in an era of prosperity and such. I’d take Michael Moore’s approach and make it not an issue about guns, but about fear. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/6 "2007-08-18T07:46:35Z")
Does anyone know, generally, what proportion of the time a CCP holder will actually be armed? ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/7 "2007-08-18T12:39:10Z")
Do you wear body armor on campus? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/8 "2007-08-18T15:28:21Z")
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead] It does seem the VTech killer had no interest in preserving his _own_ life, but I suppose a case could be made that, had armed students or staff been able to return fire, the shooter would have killed fewer people. [/QUOTE] If multiple people had firearms in that situation, and had used them, what are the possibilities? 1. They might have stopped him. 2. Other students might have been caught in the crossfire. 3. Students might have fired on each other not knowing which gun toters were the bad guys and which were the good guys. 4. Police snipers might shoot them through a window, not knowing that the killer was not the only one waving a weapon around. Have I missed any other possibilities? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/9 "2007-08-18T15:45:03Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Seven out of 100 is closer to one in 14, not one in 10, and don’t say “statistically likely to be carrying a weapon” unless just having a CCP means a 50%+ chance a holder is packing all the time. [/QUOTE] Gun control is an issue on which I really have no position: I feel totally unqualified to judge the issue. That said, I wonder about this statistic. Sure, you’re right in the criticisms above, but there’s a flip side. In addition to the folks with CCP who might be carrying, there are folks who lack a CCP who might be carrying as well. Indeed, the only time I ever saw a gun on my college campus was when a cokehead from off-campus wrangled a ride from a naive friend; at one point he hoisted up his shirt to show me the pistol tucked into his crotch. I’m guessing Mr. Cokehead lacked the necessary papers. So when we’re figuring out how many folks we pass who might have guns, we need to account for both those with permits and those without. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/10 "2007-08-18T15:57:48Z")
I have a carry permit. I almost never am actually carrying. Half the time the concealed part is theoretical. I usually carry on my hip, and the concealment is my jacket, if I wear one. I do have a shoulder holster, and at times I am really carrying concealed. (Mostly I do that because it is less intrusive to the lives of folks I pass on the street. They tend to get nervous when the hippie looking guy is packing heat in plain sight.) Virginia does have open carry, although other owners of fire arms that I know fall fairly close to my habits about carrying fire arms. Many, in fact, use gun cases at all times. (Some local ranges, in fact do require them, although most do not.) Anecdote, not data. Tris ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/11 "2007-08-18T16:19:42Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] 1. Other students might have been caught in the crossfire. [/QUOTE] In firearms training this falls under the “_greater danger theory_”, i.e. it is more dangerous to not return fire at an active shooter than to hold fire and allow the perp to continue to pick off people. However I have no idea what kind of training Virginia requires to carry. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/12 "2007-08-18T16:25:03Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] However I have no idea what kind of training Virginia requires to carry. [/QUOTE] In my case, the thirty year old DD form 214 showing that I was in the Army was sufficient. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/13 "2007-08-18T16:30:28Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] In my case, the thirty year old DD form 214 showing that I was in the Army was sufficient. Tris [/QUOTE] In your opinion, is carrying a DD 214 sufficient training for this purpose? ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/14 "2007-08-18T16:32:46Z")
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead] Does anyone know, generally, what proportion of the time a CCP holder will actually be armed? [/QUOTE] In my case it’s probably less than 10% of the time. Many individual businesses have banned weapons from their premises, as is their right, and the state has banned the carrying of weapons in establishments which serve or sell alcohol, and the combination cuts out most of my carrying in the state of Ohio. Most of the time I’d rather be able to get a drink than carry a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/15 "2007-08-18T16:53:27Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] In your opinion, is carrying a DD 214 sufficient training for this purpose? [/QUOTE] Actually, I don’t have to carry the DD 214. It is on file at the local Courthouse, and I just had them send a copy teste to the appropriate branch of the court to have the permit issued. (That, I have to carry, when I have the weapon on my person.) I never took the alternate training given by local ranges on behalf of the County Court system. I doubt that they were as demanding or thorough as Master Sargent Mathney was with respect to firearms safety, maintenance, and use. The state course can be completed in an evening, the one he gave me took ten weeks. However, I am not sure that it is legally reasonable to require training to exercise a right guaranteed in the Constitution. Prudent? Yeah. Firearms are machines designed to kill people. That’s a very serious matter, and it should be foremost in the mind of anyone who has one on their person, or in their home. I would also like to point out, for the general argument, however much we make it legally necessary that a person be sane to buy a firearm, we lack the ability to make sure they stay sane after they are armed. Hell, we can’t even keep them sane while they are driving their registered cars, while licensed to do so! It turns out that is still more dangerous in the United States than guns. ## Tris “An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup.” ~ H. L. Mencken ~ ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/16 "2007-08-18T17:02:58Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] If multiple people had firearms in that situation, and had used them, what are the possibilities? 1. They might have stopped him. 2. Other students might have been caught in the crossfire. 3. Students might have fired on each other not knowing which gun toters were the bad guys and which were the good guys. 4. Police snipers might shoot them through a window, not knowing that the killer was not the only one waving a weapon around. Have I missed any other possibilities? [/QUOTE] 5. The other firearms might not have affected the outcome at all. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/17 "2007-08-18T17:04:32Z")
[QUOTE=Bill Door] In my case it’s probably less than 10% of the time. Many individual businesses have banned weapons from their premises, as is their right, [/QUOTE] It is my understanding that in most states signs on businesses declaring no guns allowed have no weight of law. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/18 "2007-08-18T17:11:04Z")
I should point out that the last time there was a shooting on a college campus in Virginia, the presence of two armed persons, IIRC, stopped it. Both were former police. The link is in one of my posts on the VT shooter, but I can not find the news article anymore, thanks to the multiple articles about the VT shooter. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/19 "2007-08-18T17:11:49Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] It is my understanding that in most states signs on businesses declaring no guns allowed have no weight of law. [/QUOTE] I am fairly sure that in Virginia they are entirely legal, and ignoring them is a misdemeanor. Private property is the overarching matter. The proprietor has the right to require that you leave your weapon outside of his establishment. (Or, as in the case at even so meticulous a place as NRA Headquarters, assign exact places, and manners for carrying firearms.) If you don’t want to comply, you need only stay out of the premises. The restriction is applied to **all state buildings** as a specific matter of law, as well. ## Tris “You can get more of what you want with a kind word and a gun, than you can with just a kind word.” ~ Al Capone ~ ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039/20 "2007-08-18T17:16:48Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] I am fairly sure that in Virginia they are entirely legal, and ignoring them is a misdemeanor. Private property is the overarching matter. The proprietor has the right to require that you leave your weapon outside of his establishment. (Or, as in the case at even so meticulous a place as NRA Headquarters, assign exact places, and manners for carrying firearms.) If you don’t want to comply, you need only stay out of the premises. The restriction is applied to **all state buildings** as a specific matter of law, as well. I won’t argue that they have the right to dictate the rules of what comes into their business. And i certainly don’t know Virginia law. But my perusing of gun sites has led me to believe that in many states the signs in and of themselves have no force of law. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wrote-a-gun-control-op-ed-for-my-student-newspaper/416039.md?page=2)