# Ice boat races balloon, who wins? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 14, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930 "2010-01-14T13:49:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Anne\_Elk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Anne\_Elk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Elk)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/1 "2010-01-14T13:49:20Z")
I know an ice boat can sail on a reach many times the speed of the wind, but can it actually be faster then the wind, directly downwind? My physics senses tell me that a ice boat can’t go faster then it’s power source, but various ice boating folks tell me that it’s done all the time. I propose a race. A race between a DN class ice boat and a balloon. The course will be directly downwind, let’s say 3miles, the width of the course, unlimited, to allow the ice boat to tack as far as possible. The ice boat and balloon will start on the fly moving directly downwind at the wind speed. The ice boat will be free to steer in any direction in order to make the most speed downwind after the race starts. The balloon must not touch the ice, nor climb higher then the top of the ice boats mast(as to not gain any advantage in wind gradient). At the finish line the ice boat and the balloon must be within 20 yards of the directly downwind course line. As for wind, lets say 15 mph. Lets race on a cloudy day, to reduce the wind variation due to convection (if that’s even possible over ice) I’m betting on the balloon. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/2 "2010-01-14T13:58:16Z")
[Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_boat) has this (about halfway down): > [@](#): > > A downwind speed of 56 mph (90 km/h) was recorded at a World Championship in winds of just 15 mph (24 km/h) to 18 mph (29 km/h). ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/3 "2010-01-14T17:13:46Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_boat) has this (about halfway down): I’m guessing the above wiki quote was calculated after tacking was completed. The boat didn’t sail directly downwind. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/4 "2010-01-14T17:17:38Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > The boat didn’t sail directly downwind. Agreed - sailing directly downwind at greater than the wind’s speed is equivalent to sailing directly upwind, which is more or less impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Elk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Anne\_Elk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Elk)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/5 "2010-01-14T17:52:54Z")
But did the ice boat actually “beat” the wind? I’ll concede that the ice boat travels further and faster than the wind at a tangent, but will it beat a balloon in a fair race? What a lovely segment of Mythbusters that would make. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/6 "2010-01-14T18:22:32Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Agreed - sailing directly downwind at greater than the wind’s speed is equivalent to sailing directly upwind, which is more or less impossible. This isn’t true, although it does seem like it ought to be true. Given the proper design, it is quite possible to make a wind-powered craft that moves downwind faster than the wind is blowing. [Demonstration](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pSYALWQ-nI) ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/7 "2010-01-14T18:30:35Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > This isn’t true, although it does seem like it ought to be true. > > Given the proper design, it is quite possible to make a wind-powered craft that moves downwind faster than the wind is blowing. > > [Demonstration](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pSYALWQ-nI) Oh great! Iceboat on a treadmill. Thanks oodles. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/8 "2010-01-14T18:34:53Z")
> [@Anne\_Elk](#): > > But did the ice boat actually “beat” the wind? Here’s a [PDF document](http://www.nalsa.org/Articles/Cetus/Iceboat%20Sailing%20Performance-Cetus.pdf) that discusses iceboat performance in some detail. Included are results of tracking an iceboat with a recording GPS receiver. A bit more than halfway down is a diagram that shows an iceboat heading about 20 degrees from downwind, doing 70mph with an 18mph wind. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Elk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Anne\_Elk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Elk)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/9 "2010-01-14T18:36:09Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > This isn’t true, although it does seem like it ought to be true. > > Given the proper design, it is quite possible to make a wind-powered craft that moves downwind faster than the wind is blowing. > > [Demonstration](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pSYALWQ-nI) Ack! A treadmill! That is not fair!😉 ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/10 "2010-01-14T18:43:21Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > This isn’t true, although it does seem like it ought to be true. It was because of devices like the one in your link that I inserted “more or less” in my post. But it should also be noted that it’s something of a stretch to call that sort of propulsion “sailing”. To make that happen with a boat, you’d need a propeller (or the equivalent) to act upon the water. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Elk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Anne\_Elk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Elk)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/11 "2010-01-14T19:34:14Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Here’s a [PDF document](http://www.nalsa.org/Articles/Cetus/Iceboat%20Sailing%20Performance-Cetus.pdf) that discusses iceboat performance in some detail. Included are results of tracking an iceboat with a recording GPS receiver. > > A bit more than halfway down is a diagram that shows an iceboat heading about 20 degrees from downwind, doing 70mph with an 18mph wind. I’ll believe a gps receiver to measure speed, I will mistrust handheld wind-meters or human guesstimates of windspeed. That’s why I want a race against a balloon. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/12 "2010-01-15T01:20:20Z")
> [@Anne\_Elk](#): > > I’ll believe a gps receiver to measure speed, I will mistrust handheld wind-meters or human guesstimates of windspeed. I think it’s a safe bet that if the wind measurement/estimate was 18mph, the real wind was 60+. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/13 "2010-01-15T02:26:35Z")
Make that: “the real wind was _not_ 60+” ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/14 "2010-01-15T02:41:00Z")
You should check out this awesome column, published in the Chicago Reader: > **[How can racing yachts sail faster than the wind?](https://www.straightdope.com/21344013/how-can-racing-yachts-sail-faster-than-the-wind)** > [@](#): > > Today’s multihull boats, which skate on top of the water, can attain much higher speeds, and craft that don’t need to contend with water at all can go faster still. According to the World Ice Racing Circuit, ice boats can sail four to five times wind speed. In March 2009 a land sailboat reached 126 miles per hour on a dry lake bed in the Mojave Desert. By comparison, the BOR 90 may sound positively pokey — Drummond says it’s gotten close to 50 knots, or roughly 57 miles per hour. However, we’re talking about a medium in which supertankers max out at 18 miles per hour and the fastest 19th-century clipper ship achieved just 25 miles per hour. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/15 "2010-01-15T02:44:11Z")
Is Ditka drivin’? ---
**Author:** ![retsin2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@retsin2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/retsin2000)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/16 "2010-01-15T02:58:02Z")
We need to keep in mind that the OP isn’t if it is possible to go faster than the wind. Most definitely it is possible to go _much_ faster than the wind. It isn’t possible though to go faster than the wind if you go directly downwind as Cecil himself states in the above linked article. So the OP put another way is: Does the extra speed achieved by tacking make up for the extra distance traveled while tacking? This [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacking_%28sailing%29) entry says: “The extra speed gained by zigzagging downwind more than makes up for the extra distance that must be covered.” I do kknow enough to dispute it. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/17 "2010-01-15T04:54:11Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > But it should also be noted that it’s something of a stretch to call that sort of propulsion “sailing”. To make that happen with a boat, you’d need a propeller (or the equivalent) to act upon the water. By zig-zagging (tacking) the runners of an ice-boat or keel of a water boat perform equivalently to a propeller. If you dispute this, then you will find it difficult to explain how an ice skater propels himself or a fish or sculling boat for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Elk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Anne\_Elk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Elk)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/18 "2010-01-15T13:11:06Z")
Alright, I’m convinced. Thanks for all the great links and explanations. But I still want the race, preferably with a young Henne in the balloon.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/19 "2010-01-15T16:19:26Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > By zig-zagging (tacking) the runners of an ice-boat or keel of a water boat perform equivalently to a propeller. > > If you dispute this, then you will find it difficult to explain how an ice skater propels himself or a fish or sculling boat for that matter. Propellers, ice skates, and oars all move relative to the object in question, and can be used to add energy to the system. An ice boats runners are fixed to its hull. There is sort of a skating motion while it’s turning, but the claim here is that its speed advantage comes while on a steady course at an angle to the wind. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-boat-races-balloon-who-wins/524930/20 "2010-01-16T22:27:58Z")
I think Robot Arm has said it rather well. There is a notable difference between what is done by the runners of a iceboat and by the skates of a skater.