# ICE releases letter claiming they do not need a warrant for arrests - are Gestapo comparisons valid? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2019, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260 "2019-09-15T10:06:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/21 "2019-09-15T16:07:42Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > But now you’re creating an unenforceable standard. To obtain a warrant, a peace officer has to swear an information or similar document, setting out the basis for the officer’s reasonable and probable cause that X has infringed the law and should be arrested. > > But if you say there’s no way for an ICE officer to articulate why there are reasonable grounds to believe X has committed a breach of immigration laws, then there is no way, in your analysis, for a warrant to issue. So you do understand. Aside from people crossing the border and someone shouting “I am an illegal alien!” there really isn’t much of a way in the law to enforce this. Rather than addressing that problem we take the usual easy way out and ignore people’s rights. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/22 "2019-09-15T16:13:19Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Shit, I now regret putting so much work into the OP, since basically nobody seems to have read it. Oh, I did read it. It contained a clearly erroneous statement about the law, which seems to have been the foundation for your grievance, and, based on that error, a completely off-base comparison to the Gestapo - that’s the actual question in your thread title. I’m afraid once I assimilated those two facts, the rest of your OP just seemed so much sound and blather. There may be the genesis for a good debate there, but not once you’ve poisoned the well so thoroughly in your OP. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/23 "2019-09-15T17:17:06Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > If ICE can’t arrest someone for, say, walking in the area of a US border carrying a bunch of belongings and being unable to produce any ID or proof of citizenship, then what’s the point of ICE agents? Do you expect them to stand there and get a bench warrant? [QUOTE=Bone;21861627If arrested on suspicion of being in the country illegally, the burden is on the person being arrested to demonstrate they are here legally. That determination can’t be made by ICE agents in the field, but it is done after an arrest at an immigration hearing determination (there’s a word for this that escapes me).[/QUOTE] It amazes me that people will post ‘what’s the point of even having this law enforcement agency if they can’t just arrest someone for walking along the street without being able to produce ID?’, but also complain about any comparison with the Gestapo and their “Papers, please” actions. Or will post that if arrested, the burden is on the person being arrested to prove their innocence, especially since they won’t have access to a lawyer or friends and relatives to help them get documents. I don’t think that expecting any LE to have a warrant or probable cause for an arrest instead of just ‘they’re brown, they were kind of near the border and carrying belongings, lets throw them in a concentration camp until they can prove they are innocent’ is exactly unreasonable, and I don’t think Nazi comparions are unwarranted when you’re talking about an organization that arrests US citizens without a warrant or probably cause and holds them for years despite there being no crime whatsoever beyond looking like they might be foreign. ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/24 "2019-09-15T19:33:48Z")
The Gestapo would not bother to make a legal argument. They didn’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/25 "2019-09-15T23:07:06Z")
> [@Taesahnim](#): > > An officer does not need a warrant to arrest someone that the officer sees committing a crime. But what does it mean to see someone committing a crime, if the crime is being in the country without legal permission to be here? A person who’s attacking a cop looks like they’re attacking a cop. A person who’s breaking into a bank looks like they’re breaking into a bank. A person who’s in a bank at two in the morning looks like a person who’s where no person most likely has a right to be at that time. A person driving a car who’s weaving back and forth across lanes looks like a person who’s probably in no condition to be driving. A person who’s walking down the street, or harvesting apples, or mowing lawns, or doing IT work at Amazon, looks exactly the same whether they’re a US citizen descended from four generations of citizens, or got naturalized forty years or forty days ago, or are here on a legitimate work visa, or overstayed a tourist visa, or jumped a fence. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I take particular issue with this line of argument. The reason we “never forget” in the first place is that remembering what happened is a good way to stop it from happening again. If the steps society took towards fascism in the past are some holy, untouchable relic of the past where any comparison is insulting, then what’s even the point of remembering it to begin with? Just forget the lesson; you’re certainly not going to be _using_ it any time soon. :rolleyes: And then when we get concentration camps that aren’t as bad as back then (yet), and a police force that can arrest people for spurious reasons who are closely identified with the president’s party that aren’t as bad as back then (yet), we can just lean back and assume that we don’t need to worry, and things certainly can’t get worse… yet. > > I don’t know if you’ve been paying attention to the Jews against ICE protests, but… newsflash. They sure as hell don’t think these comparisons are “insulting”. :mad: Seconding. Not every Jew, of course, has the same opinion. But as a person of Jewish heritage who wouldn’t exist if my father and his parents hadn’t gotten out of Poland in time, mine is this: The lesson of the Holocaust isn’t ‘Germany in the 1930’s and 40’s was uniquely evil.’ It’s ‘if such things could happen in Germany, they can happen anywhere. And once they’ve really got going, it takes an awful lot of blood and grief to get them stopped again, and it’ll be too late for a lot of the victims. So watch out for early signs, and stop things before they’re unmistakably out of hand.’ Not everything happening now that’s sometimes compared to behavior of the Nazis deserves the comparison. And it’s true that making the comparison is sometimes impolitic and may backfire. But it’s entirely false that the comparison should never be made unless and until formal death camps are set up and operating. > [@Bone](#): > > If arrested on suspicion of being in the country illegally, the burden is on the person being arrested to demonstrate they are here legally. The burden is on a US citizen to demonstrate that they are one? Isn’t the exact opposite of “innocent until proven guilty”? Even if you’re going to claim that only citizens are entitled to that, some of the cases cited in this thread have been of citizens. Plus, of course, when the charge is specifically ‘you’re not entitled to be in the USA’, by its very nature denying the Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable seizure of the person to non-citizens means withholding it from citizens. ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/26 "2019-09-16T02:05:39Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Not everything happening now that’s sometimes compared to behavior of the Nazis deserves the comparison. Trump is sometimes called a Nazi, but I think he lacks the imagination. If he were a Nazi, his ambition would be to conquer Mexico, exterminate the Mexicans, and resettle the territory with white Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/27 "2019-09-16T02:45:14Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > But what does it mean to see someone committing a crime, if the crime is being in the country without legal permission to be here? > > A person who’s attacking a cop looks like they’re attacking a cop. A person who’s breaking into a bank looks like they’re breaking into a bank. A person who’s in a bank at two in the morning looks like a person who’s where no person most likely has a right to be at that time. A person driving a car who’s weaving back and forth across lanes looks like a person who’s probably in no condition to be driving. > > A person who’s walking down the street, or harvesting apples, or mowing lawns, or doing IT work at Amazon, looks exactly the same whether they’re a US citizen descended from four generations of citizens, or got naturalized forty years or forty days ago, or are here on a legitimate work visa, or overstayed a tourist visa, or jumped a fence. > > Seconding. > > Not every Jew, of course, has the same opinion. But as a person of Jewish heritage who wouldn’t exist if my father and his parents hadn’t gotten out of Poland in time, mine is this: The lesson of the Holocaust isn’t ‘Germany in the 1930’s and 40’s was uniquely evil.’ It’s ‘if such things could happen in Germany, they can happen anywhere. And once they’ve really got going, it takes an awful lot of blood and grief to get them stopped again, and it’ll be too late for a lot of the victims. So watch out for early signs, and stop things before they’re unmistakably out of hand.’ > > Not everything happening now that’s sometimes compared to behavior of the Nazis deserves the comparison. And it’s true that making the comparison is sometimes impolitic and may backfire. But it’s entirely false that the comparison should never be made unless and until formal death camps are set up and operating. > > The burden is on a US citizen to demonstrate that they are one? > > Isn’t the exact opposite of “innocent until proven guilty”? Even if you’re going to claim that only citizens are entitled to that, some of the cases cited in this thread have been of citizens. Plus, of course, when the charge is specifically ‘you’re not entitled to be in the USA’, by its very nature denying the Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable seizure of the person to non-citizens means withholding it from citizens. No, just the ones who fail the paper bag test. But that’s the point. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/28 "2019-09-16T04:07:01Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The burden is on a US citizen to demonstrate that they are one? > > Isn’t the exact opposite of “innocent until proven guilty”? Even if you’re going to claim that only citizens are entitled to that, some of the cases cited in this thread have been of citizens. Plus, of course, when the charge is specifically ‘you’re not entitled to be in the USA’, by its very nature denying the Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable seizure of the person to non-citizens means withholding it from citizens. In many cases, yes. That is the law. Innocent until proven guilty, or the presumption of innocence applies at trial, in criminal matters. Since immigration is mostly a civil action, it doesn’t apply. There are of course other laws that control where the burden lays, but often times the burden is on the individual to demonstrate their right to be in the country. Here’s the wiki: > [@](#): > > Burden of proof involving a permanent resident > Further information: Lawful permanent residents (United States) > A lawful permanent resident (LPR) is a person “having been lawfully accorded the privilege of residing permanently in the United States as an immigrant in accordance with the immigration laws, such status not having changed.”[52] An LPR can either be an “alien” or a “national of the United States” (American), which requires a case-by-case analysis and depends mainly on the number of continuous years he or she has spent in the United States.[53] “In removal proceedings involving an LPR, the [DHS] bears the burden of proof, which it must meet by adducing clear, unequivocal, and convincing evidence that the facts alleged as grounds for deportation are true.”[8][9] This is to uphold the U.S. Constitution, deter civil disorder, and protect the United States against major lawsuits.[21][22][54] > > Burden of proof involving a nonpermanent resident > In removal proceedings involving a non-LPR, the burden of proof is on the alien to show that he or she “is clearly and beyond doubt entitled to be admitted and is not inadmissible under” the INA.[55] Specifically: > > Arriving Aliens: As a general rule, the arriving non-LPR alien bears the legal burden of proof of clear admissibility to the United States.[51][55] > Aliens Present Without Admission or Parole: This refers to illegal aliens.[7] In this case, once the prosecution establishes that the respondent is a non-LPR alien, the burden of proof is on the respondent to demonstrate that he or she is in lawful status in the United States.[51][55] > Admitted Aliens: This refers to aliens who were admitted by the government. In other words, they lawfully entered the country as opposed to unlawfully. Here, the legal burden of proof of removability falls on the prosecution.[8][51] > Regardless of the category, if the alien is requesting any form of relief from removal, e.g., cancellation of removal, waiver of inadmissibility, and/or protection under the CAT, the burden of proof for demonstrating eligibility for the relief squarely falls on the alien.[55] In the first category, DHS bears the burden. In the second category, the alien bears the burden. Now, if a person is actually a citizen, they would be in the first category, however unless they can demonstrate they are in the first category, I would think they fall into the second. And a lawful detention or arrest is by definition not unreasonable, and therefor not violative of the 4th amendment. As long as the proper process and procedures are followed, there is nothing illegal about ICE detaining a person that is suspected of being in the country illegally, and arresting them if they have probable cause to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Turki-lurki](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turki-lurki/32/7168_2.png) [@Turki-lurki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turki-lurki)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/29 "2019-09-16T04:20:36Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > In that case, try getting out of your car and assaulting a cop the next time you’re pulled over for a traffic violation, then demanding to be released because the officer didn’t have a warrant. > > Really, just drop the Gestapo/Nazi comparisons. They’re grievously insulting to the memory of actual victims of the Nazis, and their descendants. The modern situations they’re applied to almost never come close to what actually happened under Adolph and his merry band of psychotics. True enough. We are just at the beginning of the process that ends with Gestapo tactics. As a nation we had better act now to bresk the back of this rapidly developing monster. Hope a 2020 Democratic run on the Executive and Legislative branches is in time… ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/30 "2019-09-16T05:07:49Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > In many cases, yes. That is the law. Innocent until proven guilty, or the presumption of innocence applies at trial, in criminal matters. Since immigration is mostly a civil action, it doesn’t apply. Detaining and arresting people without probable cause or a warrant and claiming that they need to prove something but giving them no trial or access to council or people not detained by calling it a ‘civil action’ is awful. Whether it’s technically legal or not is beside the point - the actions carried out by the Gestapo in Nazi Germany were also legal, after all. > [@](#): > > And a lawful detention or arrest is by definition not unreasonable, and therefor not violative of the 4th amendment. The 4th amendment does not mean ‘whatever you pass as a law to detain people is ipso facto reasonable’, it does in fact set limits on what a law can do. Further, the term ‘unreasonable’ isn’t limited to the strict legal definition, for example most people today would find segregated drinking fountains ‘uneasonable’ even though courts at the time upheld them. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/31 "2019-09-16T05:30:46Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Detaining and arresting people without probable cause or a warrant and claiming that they need to prove something but giving them no trial or access to council or people not detained by calling it a ‘civil action’ is awful. Whether it’s technically legal or not is beside the point - the actions carried out by the Gestapo in Nazi Germany were also legal, after all. Sure, if that was what was the common practice, but it’s not. The wiki describes the process generally for immigration hearings. There is due process, though it’s not the same as for criminal trials since the hearings are not criminal trials. This is described in the wiki article I quoted above, but forgot to link. [Here is the link.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal_proceedings) You’re conflating the necessary requirements for arrest, as if probable cause is the same as a judicial warrant. They are not the same thing. The link in the OP from ICE describing the fact that, _"no judge in this country has the authority to issue a warrant for a civil immigration violation. Congress, by statute, vested this authorization solely to supervisory immigration officers. "_ is accurate. So claiming that people are arrested without a judicial warrant is an absurdity since there can never be such a warrant. Now, detentions upon reasonable suspicion, and arrests upon probable cause - that’s the current state of the law and has been for many many decades. As to a lack of trial - it’s not a criminal matter mostly. This is the thing that people hang their hat on when they object to the term “illegal aliens”, right? Not being a criminal matter, there isn’t a criminal trial. But a respondent is able to have an attorney represent them, but my understanding is that one is not provided to them as they would be in a criminal trial. And this refrain that the actions of the Gestapo were legal is pretty awful. It can be leveled against anything lawful. The parallels trying to be drawn here, and by the OP, are terrible and unpersuasive. They probably do more damage to whatever cause is trying to be advanced because it harms credibility and makes readers not take seriously any claims being made. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/32 "2019-09-16T07:42:59Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > You’re conflating the necessary requirements for arrest, as if probable cause is the same as a judicial warrant. They are not the same thing. The link in the OP from ICE describing the fact that, _"no judge in this country has the authority to issue a warrant for a civil immigration violation. Congress, by statute, vested this authorization solely to supervisory immigration officers. "_ is accurate. So claiming that people are arrested without a judicial warrant is an absurdity since there can never be such a warrant. Now, detentions upon reasonable suspicion, and arrests upon probable cause - that’s the current state of the law and has been for many many decades. > > As to a lack of trial - it’s not a criminal matter mostly. This is the thing that people hang their hat on when they object to the term “illegal aliens”, right? Not being a criminal matter, there isn’t a criminal trial. But a respondent is able to have an attorney represent them, but my understanding is that one is not provided to them as they would be in a criminal trial. > > And this refrain that the actions of the Gestapo were legal is pretty awful. It can be leveled against anything lawful. The parallels trying to be drawn here, and by the OP, are terrible and unpersuasive. They probably do more damage to whatever cause is trying to be advanced because it harms credibility and makes readers not take seriously any claims being made. All this talk of what the law is seems like it’s missing the point somewhat. Why yes, it is completely legal for ICE to snatch people off the street with no warrant based only on very flimsy probable cause (which leads to a lot of mistakes). Why yes, it is completely legal for them to deport people, [even US citizens](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-citizen-detained-by-ice-francisco-erwin-galicia-border-officials-conditions-bad-almost-self-deported/), without a criminal trial, and often without being represented by an attourney. Why yes, it _is_ completely legal for them to separate families and stick them in concentration camps indefinitely. The part of this that’s supposed to bother you is not “oh wow, all that stuff is against the law”, because it isn’t - and that kinda makes it worse. The part that’s supposed to bother you is that it’s _that it’s happening at all_, and that it’s _getting worse_. That’s why people are saying “The Gestapo was legal too”. That’s why I’m not super interested that I don’t have a super deep understanding of immigration case law, unless the part I’m misunderstanding is any of those “completely legal” things above. Christ, you throw all your toys out of the pram at the slightest suggestion that someone regulate your mass murder devices, but a government organization with an embarrassing rate of inaccuracy snatching people from the street and detaining them for years on end is apparently A-OK? I do not get republicans at all. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/33 "2019-09-16T07:49:12Z")
Also, let’s be clear here. > [@alnath](#): > > True enough. We are just at the beginning of the process that ends with Gestapo tactics. As a nation we had better act now to bresk the back of this rapidly developing monster. Hope a 2020 Democratic run on the Executive and Legislative branches is in time… By the time anything is so bad that it can reasonably be compared to the Gestapo without scolds less interested in learning the lessons of history than they are in venerating those long dead regardless of the cost complaining that you’re “cheapening the memory”… It’s already way too late. By the time things get that bad, the fight is lost. The country is lost. There is no way back that isn’t drowned in the blood of the innocent. By the time it gets bad enough for people like **Jackmanii** not to complain about these comparisons cheapening the memory of the victims of the Gestapo, it will no longer be possible to make these comparisons in public. This is why I prefer using history to search for early warning signs. Why things that aren’t really like the Gestapo but sure seem to be going in that direction deserve incredible scrutiny. Because we cannot let it get that far. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/34 "2019-09-16T11:23:13Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > No, just the ones who fail the paper bag test. > > But that’s the point. We refer to the off-border CBP checkpoints as Skin Checks. The one I pass through most often is a good 90 minute drive from the border. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/35 "2019-09-16T12:17:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Given that the domestic terrorist organization Antifa has recently decided they think it’s cool to attack ICE facilities, This thread started with a crazy overreaction and it continues to deliver. I’m kind of surprised, going back to the OP, that the fact cops can arrest you without a warrant would escape notice. I mean, there have been approximately 11 trillion TV shows and movies about cops arresting perpetrators and we don’t all throw our hands up in disgust and say “man, why do they NEVER get a warrant in these shows?” Budget Player is altering the tune here, and hey, there’s creeping fascism throughout the Western world; that is an unfortunate fact. But leading off a discussion about that with “I thought you needed a warrant to arrest people” is like leading off a purportedly serious discussion about NFL football by saying “I thought there were three quarters in a game” or “I thought a field goal was worth five points.” ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/36 "2019-09-16T12:27:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > This thread started with a crazy overreaction and it continues to deliver. > > I’m kind of surprised, going back to the OP, that the fact cops can arrest you without a warrant would escape notice. I mean, there have been approximately 11 trillion TV shows and movies about cops arresting perpetrators and we don’t all throw our hands up in disgust and say “man, why do they NEVER get a warrant in these shows?” > > Budget Player is altering the tune here, and hey, there’s creeping fascism throughout the Western world; that is an unfortunate fact. But leading off a discussion about that with “I thought you needed a warrant to arrest people” is like leading off a purportedly serious discussion about NFL football by saying “I thought there were three quarters in a game” or “I thought a field goal was worth five points.” > [@TriPolar](#): > > The problem here is that you can’t observe someone being an illegal alien. So a warrant is required for an arrest on that basis. :rolleyes: Yes, thank you, I am _well aware_ that cops arrest people for crimes in progress without warrants. I sincerely regret not making it more obvious in the OP that that’s not what we’re talking about, but I honestly thought it would be obvious from the context clues that ICE doesn’t have that option, or, at least shouldn’t. So can we drop this absurd canard, or what? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/37 "2019-09-16T12:36:10Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Yes, thank you, I am _well aware_ that cops arrest people for crimes in progress without warrants. I sincerely regret not making it more obvious in the OP that that’s not what we’re talking about, but I honestly thought it would be obvious from the context clues that ICE doesn’t have that option, or, at least shouldn’t. > > So can we drop this absurd canard, or what? Start a new thread then, you ruined this one. You said “I was under the impression that arresting people was one of those things you generally needed a warrant for.” Don’t be mad the people on the dope jumped in to correct you. Furthermore, as much as I have an issue with ICE and their tactics, it’s silly to think that ICE never has probable cause to arrest people. 37 people spilling out of a van in the desert near the Mexican border after being stopped at a checkpoint? You don’t think that would count as probable cause? If you were an ICE agent would you stand there and say, “Hang on guys, we can’t tell their immigration status based on this.” ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/38 "2019-09-16T12:37:52Z")
I’m really sorry for assuming that the dope could read for context or read half a page of posts or think even half a step further before jumping in with ill-thought-out nonsense. My bad. I’ll request the thread be closed and try again. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/39 "2019-09-16T12:47:32Z")
I mean you _just said_, post #36, that you don’t think ICE should have the option to arrest people for probable cause. Do you still believe that? Am I missing context, did I not think half a step further? What am I missing? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/40 "2019-09-16T13:12:08Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > All this talk of what the law is seems like it’s missing the point somewhat. My point was to correct or address misunderstandings of the law, and provide context where it was left out or omitted in a way to be misleading. For instance, your first example of the person held for 26 days seems to leave out relevant context - like the fact he was traveling with his brother who was undocumented, the fact that while he had documentation, when ICE reviewed them they discovered there was also documentation that he was a Mexican national (mother filled out travel visas from Mexico). This is no justification for the conditions as described, of course. It seems like an underlying understanding of the law is necessary to have an informed discussion, otherwise you go down the path of misstating obvious facts and grandiose unreasonable comparisons to Nazis. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260.md?page=3)