# ICE releases letter claiming they do not need a warrant for arrests - are Gestapo comparisons valid? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2019, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260 "2019-09-15T10:06:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/61 "2019-09-16T17:56:05Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Isn’t the exact opposite of “innocent until proven guilty”? Even if you’re going to claim that only citizens are entitled to that, some of the cases cited in this thread have been of citizens. Plus, of course, when the charge is specifically ‘you’re not entitled to be in the USA’, by its very nature denying the Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable seizure of the person to non-citizens means withholding it from citizens. As a matter of law, the presumption of innocence (requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt) does not usually extend to civil cases. The standard in civil cases is a preponderance of the evidence. There is a notable exception when initiating a civil case for redress of an overturned conviction (_Nelson v Colorado_, 2017). It doesn’t make sense to overturn a conviction on the presumption of innocence then require the same person to prove their innocence to be reimbursed. ~Max 137 S. Ct. 1249; 197 L. Ed. 2d 611 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/62 "2019-09-16T18:03:53Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The felons above are at least offered a bail hearing in front of a judge, and are guaranteed legal representation, guaranteed a trial before a jury of peers, without even quibbling about factually innocent vs. not charged/convicted. Do such niceties or separations of power exist in an ICE detention center? No, but that’s not ICE’s fault. Congress has set the boundaries for their operations, and the Supreme Court has granted broad latitude to Congress to deal with foreign affairs (including immigration matters). ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/63 "2019-09-16T18:05:17Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > There is no context where a US Citizen, who presents his ID, SS card and Birth Cert. to authorities should then be imprisoned for 26 days over a civil immigration violation. > > … > Ultimately, this is the problem with ICE. They act under the rules of law enforcement, their targets are people who commit civil infractions, but the actions they take are comparable to those taken against hardened criminals who represent a danger to society. Imprisonment without bail, and often without legal representation, until they are done processing your case, to their internal satisfaction. Agreed. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/64 "2019-09-16T18:20:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, but that’s not ICE’s fault. Congress has set the boundaries for their operations, and the Supreme Court has granted broad latitude to Congress to deal with foreign affairs (including immigration matters). ICE agents are duty-bound to uphold the Constitution above any loyalty to the President _or_ statutory law. Should they seek an injunction from performing their duties until such time as the immigration courts can provide due process within forty-eight hours? And ideally, shouldn’t the President be on their side? Slowing down apprehensions looks bad for the President’s base, so he isn’t on your side. ICE administrators depend on their jobs to support their families. If they go against the administration (publicly or privately), they lose their jobs. There are plenty of people out there waiting to take their place. Less-qualified, less compassionate people who might even be racist or xenophobic. What did Sally Yates accomplish? It’s a dilemma. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/65 "2019-09-16T18:25:11Z")
Huh? ICE agents don’t have any constitutional duties. The Constitution doesn’t mention immigration enforcement, and ICE officers’ duties are wholly specified by statute and regulation. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/66 "2019-09-16T18:31:08Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > It’s not illegal to carry your possessions in public places, and it’s not illegal to walk without citizenship papers or ID. > > If ICE can stop an immigrant for being in public without breaking the law, then they can also stop and arrest you, a citizen, for doing it. The only thing protecting you from being singled out is if you happen to be white. Unless you are on the banks of the Rio Grande or otherwise in the immediate vicinity of the border, I don’t believe ICE can detain you on sight based on your presence alone. And skin color cannot be used as a factor either; if it is, I am very much against that. It is my understanding that ICE goes through the trouble of looking for “illegal immigrants” in their computer system - people born outside of the US without a record of citizenship or lawful resident/visa status, _then_ goes out in search of them. If they are actually heading out to random parking lots and public spaces in search of Mexican-looking people, then look them up in the system (or not), _a la_ plain racial profiling, that’s horrible. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/67 "2019-09-16T18:34:19Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Huh? ICE agents don’t have any constitutional duties. The Constitution doesn’t mention immigration enforcement, and ICE officers’ duties are wholly specified by statute and regulation. All members of the executive branch are sworn to uphold the constitution. 5 U.S. Code § 3331 “I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.” ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/68 "2019-09-16T18:35:05Z")
You kind of missed the point. What does the Constitution say about immigration enforcement? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/69 "2019-09-16T18:53:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You kind of missed the point. What does the Constitution say about immigration enforcement? The Fifth Amendment reads in part: “No person… shall… be deprived of… liberty… without due process of law.” Holding a person in custody for over forty-eight hours without seeing a judge constitutes a deprivation of liberty without due process of law. Cites available on request. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/70 "2019-09-16T19:10:50Z")
My concern would be that if I were detained by ICE, how could I get the proof that I’m a citizen. I’m basically held incommunicado so I can’t have an attorney that would get my records. I can’t call home and have someone grab my birth certificate or passport. Can I count on ICE recognizing the gold star on my driver’s license and realize that since I’m in a REAL ID state that it is implied (in my state) I’m here legally? I wouldn’t count on it. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/71 "2019-09-16T19:18:20Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The Fifth Amendment reads in part: > “No person… shall… be deprived of… liberty… without due process of law.” > Holding a person in custody for over forty-eight hours without seeing a judge constitutes a deprivation of liberty without due process of law. Cites available on request. > > ~Max Sure, I’d love to see a cite. My suspicion is that you’re referring to criminal law. Due process for immigration matters is different so hopefully your cite is with respect to the applicable standards. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/72 "2019-09-16T19:23:34Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > My concern would be that if I were detained by ICE, how could I get the proof that I’m a citizen. I’m basically held incommunicado so I can’t have an attorney that would get my records. I can’t call home and have someone grab my birth certificate or passport. Can I count on ICE recognizing the gold star on my driver’s license and realize that since I’m in a REAL ID state that it is implied (in my state) I’m here legally? I wouldn’t count on it. You still get one free local phone call, but if they take you to another state or region they won’t pay for long distance. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/73 "2019-09-16T19:30:28Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Sure, I’d love to see a cite. My suspicion is that you’re referring to criminal law. Due process for immigration matters is different so hopefully your cite is with respect to the applicable standards. I’m pretty sure that “nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law” applies outside of criminal law, and even applies to people who aren’t citizens, and even applies to people who came here illegally. Or really, is the expectation that a person accused of mass murder has more legal rights regarding life, liberty and property than a person accused of being here with an expired Visa? And even if Congress sets the bounds for how ICE operates, the point about ICE being a bunch of thugs who have nobody overseeing them is correctly directed to Congress and the President, who are every bit as much responsible for ICE’s abuses as ICE itself. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/74 "2019-09-16T19:34:23Z")
The claim is that being held for greater than 48 hours without a form of arraignment is a violation of the 5th amendment prohibition against deprivation of liberty without due process. Of course due process applies to anyone in the country, regardless of their immigration staus. What constitutes due process is in question, not whether due process applies. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/75 "2019-09-16T19:41:57Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I suppose you’d have to define your terms a bit better before I could provide you more of an answer. I view an arrest as a form of imprisonment, so I’d say “all of them”… If you view arrest as a form of imprisonment, then I think any attempt to match your dictionary with mine would take several days/pages and hijack this thread. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/76 "2019-09-16T19:43:46Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Not seeing the mistake. My first post was more general, with the second having greater detail. So, you said “If arrested on suspicion of being in the country illegally, the burden is on the person being arrested to demonstrate they are here legally.” and “Now, if a person is actually a citizen, they would be in the first category, however unless they can demonstrate they are in the first category, I would think they fall into the second.” And you don’t see anything wrong with either of those statements when it is pointed out that a detained person does not have \*any[/] burden of proof unless and until the government meets its burden of proving that the person is a non-lawful permanent resident? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/77 "2019-09-16T19:50:31Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > So, you said “If arrested on suspicion of being in the country illegally, the burden is on the person being arrested to demonstrate they are here legally.” and “Now, if a person is actually a citizen, they would be in the first category, however unless they can demonstrate they are in the first category, I would think they fall into the second.” > > And you don’t see anything wrong with either of those statements when it is pointed out that a detained person does not have \*any[/] burden of proof unless and until the government meets its burden of proving that the person is a non-lawful permanent resident? No, but I could be missing something. The government doesn’t need to prove a person is a non-LPR, at least by my understanding. They need to establish it, but the standard for establishing that is not a high bar. Glad to be corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/78 "2019-09-16T20:37:27Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > No, but I could be missing something. The government doesn’t need to prove a person is a non-LPR, at least by my understanding. They need to establish it, but the standard for establishing that is not a high bar. Glad to be corrected. ICE: Your honor, the defendant has no paperwork showing they are a citizen. D: If you let me contact someone I can have the paperwork. ICE: See, he even admits he doesn’t have his paperwork on him. Judge: Back to the hole. No contact with anyone. Maybe we should always carry our passports with us at all times. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/79 "2019-09-16T20:46:04Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The Fifth Amendment reads in part: > “No person… shall… be deprived of… liberty… without due process of law.” > Holding a person in custody for over forty-eight hours without seeing a judge constitutes a deprivation of liberty without due process of law. Cites available on request. > > ~Max But in the immigration context, holding them for six months or more is [just fine](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/15-1204_f29g.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260/80 "2019-09-16T23:57:15Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Unless you are on the banks of the Rio Grande or otherwise in the immediate vicinity of the border, I don’t believe ICE can detain you on sight based on your presence alone. And skin color cannot be used as a factor either; if it is, I am very much against that. > > It is my understanding that ICE goes through the trouble of looking for “illegal immigrants” in their computer system - people born outside of the US without a record of citizenship or lawful resident/visa status, _then_ goes out in search of them. > > If they are actually heading out to random parking lots and public spaces in search of Mexican-looking people, then look them up in the system (or not), _a la_ plain racial profiling, that’s horrible. And right now would be the time when you decide what you do when you see things that you describe as “horrible”. I hope you do the right thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ice-releases-letter-claiming-they-do-not-need-a-warrant-for-arrests-are-gestapo-comparisons-valid/840260.md?page=5)