# Iconic but awful **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [October 11, 2021, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285 "2021-10-11T02:10:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/181 "2021-10-13T14:59:01Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > And, it’s hard to take a movie too seriously when every single scene has been parodied repeatedly, and your picturing Millhouse saying some of the iconic lines. But I posted the exact same thing about _Casablanca_ above. And yet, Casablanca is an iconic movie that is still excellent. “Of all the tree houses in all the Springfields in all the world, she has to walk into mine.” I’m picturing Lisa as Ilsa and Nelson as Victor, Bart as Louis, Homer as Ferrari, Skinner as Strasser. And _Thelma and Louise_ is stupid! “Female empowerment”, Bah! Empowered to make stupid decisions, and commit suicide rather than actually solve the problem, all the while thinking they were the heroes of the film. That they did the right thing. But it did inspire a good Simpsons episode. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/182 "2021-10-13T15:05:08Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > Is _Love, Actually_ iconic? I can’t stomach it. The story lines are contrived and nonsensical. A waste of a lot of good actors. It’s starting to become considered a Christmas staple by many and, at the very least, had a bunch of iconic scenes (the cue card scene has been parodied by everyone it seems). ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/183 "2021-10-13T15:40:34Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I just genuinely didn’t get why it was supposed to be scary. Intentionally badly-shot, fine, that’s been done, it can work. But… then… something’s going to happen, surely? It didn’t. Then nothing happened again. And then nothing happened some more. The end was nothing happening. > > It was like horror as written by Virginia Woolf. > > Or someone’s nightmare directly translated to video. Other people’s dreams are always dull. Similar to _The Exorcist_, I think _The Blair Witch Project_ is only effective if you believe in the supernatural (and don’t know that the actors didn’t actually die). A very religious colleague who found _TBWP_ really scary came in to work crestfallen the day after he saw the female co-star on a talk show alive and well. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/184 "2021-10-13T16:01:22Z")
Can I nominate a whole genre? “Classic rock.” Don’t get me wrong – most individual classic rock songs are fantastic. (And iconic.) But I hate the genre. For one thing, it’s boring to hear the same few hundred songs day-in, day-out, and for another, classic rock has helped destroy the market for new rock that might otherwise catch on with a wider audience. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/185 "2021-10-13T16:11:08Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > So two things - I think this is a completely reasonable assumption. Modern culture is far less tolerant of bloodshed than it used to be. People are acting like because colonists just slaughtered the natives hundreds of years ago, that we’d have no problem doing that today or in the future - but clearly that’s contradicted by the actual reality wars have dramatically less casualties than in the past, and large scale genocides are not something that would generally be tolerated in the modern world. And it’s hard to imagine that trend reversing - it’s unlikely that our culture which has almost entirely gone away from being okay with bloodshed and slaughter will suddenly become comfortable with it again in the future. Contemporary Americans are willing to look the other way when fruit companies fund Colombian death squads. If we’re willing to let corporations massacre other humans in pursuit of a cheaper banana, I don’t see future humans getting too upset if we wipe out a bunch of not-humans on an entirely different planet, especially when what’s at stake is the survival of human civilization as we know it. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > But even that’s besides the point. When you say “Avatar’s plot is dumb. Obviously they would’ve just nuked the planet from orbit, and since they didn’t, that’s a plothole” is not saying that being willing to inflict genocide via weapons of mass destruction is one plausible option for the characters, but that it is the _only_ plausible option, and since that option was not used, obviously the writing is bad and that’s a plothole. Except that’s not actually the argument against Avatar. You’re conflating two criticisms. The first is that the big fight at the end was dumb, because the corporation controlled orbital space. They didn’t need to send in a marine in chain saw power armor to destroy the tree, they could just drop a medium sized rock on it and there’d be absolutely nothing the natives could do about it. That’s not “nuke the planet,” or even “wide scale genocide” - that’s causing just as much destruction and dead natives as the plan they actually went with. The other criticism is the idea that, now that the natives have killed a dozen or so marines and taken over one of their space ships, that they have any sort of realistic chance of holding on once the rest of human society realizes their unobtanium supply has been cut off, and their entire civilization is now teetering on collapse until they get it back. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/186 "2021-10-13T17:39:55Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Similar to _The Exorcist_ , I think _The Blair Witch Project_ is only effective if you believe in the supernatural (and don’t know that the actors didn’t actually die). > > A very religious colleague who found _TBWP_ really scary came in to work crestfallen the day after he saw the female co-star on a talk show alive and well. Wow. I’ve heard of people like that but never met one. They must find the world very difficult to cope with. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/187 "2021-10-13T18:10:38Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Similar to _The Exorcist_ , I think _The Blair Witch Project_ is only effective if you believe in the supernatural I don’t believe in the supernatural, nor do I believe in FTL travel, but I am able to enjoy The Exorcist and Star Trek, because I’m willing to accept the story as it is. TBWP still sucked, EVEN with willing suspension of disbelief, because it was just stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/188 "2021-10-13T19:46:45Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > > [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > > > Similar to _The Exorcist_ , I think _The Blair Witch Project_ is only effective if you believe in the supernatural (and don’t know that the actors didn’t actually die). > > > > A very religious colleague who found _TBWP_ really scary came in to work crestfallen the day after he saw the female co-star on a talk show alive and well. > > Wow. I’ve heard of people like that but never met one. They must find the world very difficult to cope with. I’m confused. Did the religious coworker believe the movie was actual found footage – IOW, a documentary? And was he _glad_ that the kids had all been killed ? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/189 "2021-10-13T20:41:02Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > I’m confused. Did the religious coworker believe the movie was actual found footage – IOW, a documentary? The movie was marketed as real footage of actual missing campers. A fair number of people got fooled, especially during the viral campaign leading up to the film’s release. Arguably, that’s what led to the film’s surprising success. Once it was #1 in the box office, and started getting attention from major media outlets, the gimmick fell apart pretty quickly. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/190 "2021-10-13T20:42:43Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > I’m confused. Did the religious coworker believe the movie was actual found footage – IOW, a documentary? > > And was he _glad_ that the kids had all been killed ? 1. Yes. Recall that the producers created a pioneering internet-based campaign which fooled a lot of gullible people here in Baltimore. They got Stan Stovall, a prominent local newscaster, to take part, reading an account straight-faced. 2. I’m sure he wasn’t glad. But he seemed to sincerely believe that the film was the truth, proving that you don’t mess around with God. And he seemed crestfallen that he’d been taken in by a hoax. Maybe ‘bewildered’ is a better word. FWIW he was in his early 20s, and from the Deep South. ETA: What Miller said. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/191 "2021-10-13T20:47:21Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > But he seemed to sincerely believe that the film was the truth, proving that you don’t mess around with God. But wouldn’t it prove just the opposite – that God’s enemies (witches, Satan, etc.) are powerful, and you shouldn’t mess with _them_? (I know, I know, don’t expect logic from the deeply religious.) ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/192 "2021-10-13T20:50:09Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Except that’s not actually the argument against Avatar. You’re conflating two criticisms. The first is that the big fight at the end was dumb, because the corporation controlled orbital space. They didn’t need to send in a marine in chain saw power armor to destroy the tree, they could just drop a medium sized rock on it and there’d be absolutely nothing the natives could do about it. I’ve seen plenty of criticism of Avatar from people who said that we’d just casually wipe life off the whole planet and that the movie portrayed anything else is dumb and implausible and is therefore a plot hole. Your version is more reasonable, but that is not the critique I’m generally responding to. I think it’s plausible that the movie version makes sense - dropping a rock from orbit to hit an exact target is probably tricky business due to the variability of how the rock will react to atmospheric burn, and I don’t think we’re shown that the humans of Avatar have magic space tech that basically gives them unlimited thrust. Getting into the right orbit with a big enough payload to drop a rock on that exact spot in a reasonble time frame may have been outside of the capabilities of the shuttles they were dealing with. Just dropping some improvised mining explosive from the air seemed like it was going to work, and did work well enough. And their attack plan was plausible - they had good enough equipment to handle anything they’d dealt with on the planet before, and it was only the surprise that the planet essentially had a coordinated defense system that made them lose the battle. A lot of accusations of plot holes aren’t plot holes at all, but just people saying “they acted plausibly but imperfectly given the information at the time and the constraints they had to work with, plot hole!” > [@](#): > > The other criticism is the idea that, now that the natives have killed a dozen or so marines and taken over one of their space ships, that they have any sort of realistic chance of holding on once the rest of human society realizes their unobtanium supply has been cut off, and their entire civilization is now teetering on collapse until they get it back. Does the movie imply this? I haven’t seen it in 10 years, but I don’t remember anything like this. They won the battle, but there might be a next move from Earth on the next trip back. That’s probably what the sequels are about. If no one in the movie says “yay, we won, now Earth cannot possibly hurt us”, then this isn’t a plot hole at all, it’s just something that would come after the movie ended. It’s entirely plausible that Avatar 2 will be about exactly that thing. The story, as told, was plausible from the limitations and expectations of the characters. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/193 "2021-10-13T20:54:41Z")
I agree about much of the discussion on _Avatar_ going on here. Kind of fun to watch in the theater, but I’ve never bothered to revisit it. Anyway, if the company dropped rocks from orbit, couldn’t the Navi float them back up? I don’t remember how their magic worked. I hope that isn’t a spoiler for the sequel. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/194 "2021-10-13T21:24:23Z")
Not Avatar related– My husband forced me to sit through all 8 hours of The English Patient. What a boring slog for absolutely no payoff whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/195 "2021-10-13T21:25:17Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > But all the other great composers are dead. 🤨 ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/196 "2021-10-13T21:39:38Z")
Once Upon a Time In Hollywood is not up to the job. The concept alone, the idea for it are great. Just not well done. Lame dialogue, corny jokes, randomness without resonance. Is this really QT? ---
**Author:** ![themapleleaf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themapleleaf/32/14349_2.png) [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/197 "2021-10-13T21:45:51Z")
> [@Jihi](#): > > Citizen Kane is brilliant, but not because of the story or acting (which are both still good). It’s mostly remembered due to it’s groundbreaking filmmaking techniques which will look quaint today. Without context it does come off as staid in the 21st century. I saw Citizen Kane when I was roughly 17-19. I would probably do well to watch it again. I wouldn’t say it’s “bad” by any standard, but I feel it’s somewhat overrated. I certainly can’t agree with anyone who would claim that it’s the best movie ever made. Compared to “Schindler’s List” or “Seven Samurai”, it’s a joke. That said, “staid” would be a good way to describe it. The acting style makes sense in a 1940s context, but today comes across as too theatrical. Moreover, I recall that most of the characters (other than the reporter who’s so doggedly interested in finding out the meaning of “Rosebud”) were mildly to strongly negative. Apart from his shitty childhood, I had little sympathy for the title character, plus I find Orson Welles to be mildy repulsive. So it was a combination of personal taste and the acting being too staid (on the other hand “Gone With The Wind”, which is a little older, is my favorite film ever, partly because the actors are more passionate and the characters IMHO more relatable). That said, I don’t wish to disparage it, as long as you don’t claim it’s anything like the best movie ever made. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/198 "2021-10-13T22:28:37Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > My husband forced me to sit through all 8 hours of The English Patient. What a boring slog for absolutely no payoff whatsoever. This one was painful. Just endless. Which reminds me: we used to call _The Unbearable Lightness of Being_ the “Unbearable Length of This Movie”. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/199 "2021-10-13T22:41:57Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > This one was painful. Just endless. Which reminds me … … of _Doctor Zhivago_. Good lord, if I heard “Lara’s Theme” one more time I was going to track down Maurice Jarre’s descendants and feed their dogs kung pao chicken. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/200 "2021-10-13T22:41:59Z")
“I HATE IT! OH, GO TO HELL!” [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/T5qalNX5G94/hqdefault.jpg "Elaine at the movie") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5qalNX5G94) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285.md?page=11)