# Iconic but awful **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [October 11, 2021, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285 "2021-10-11T02:10:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2021, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/281 "2021-10-17T07:59:16Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I’m a big fan of absurdist humor which is why I love Green Acres so much. And Arnold was so charming too. I’m all for absurdist humor, especially pigs who can grunt in seven languages. But shows like _ **Green Acres** _ and _ **The Beverly Hillbillies** _ were built around one joke (or set of jokes). Once you’ve told a joke, how many times can you repeat it before it goes stale? The Clampetts lived in Beverly Hills for _nine years_ and were just as clueless on the last day as they were on the first. By the time the show went to color in 1966, it had already begun to sink in to me what complete morons they were. _ **Married .. with Children** _ is another example of a basically one-joke show. The only reason it lasted as long as it did was that (like _ **Seinfeld** _) it was a reaction against all the warm, cuddly, “family-oriented” sitcoms of the '80s. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/8JtADjU4UH4/hqdefault.jpg "The Simpsons - Al, Let's Have Sex") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JtADjU4UH4) ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2021, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/282 "2021-10-17T11:29:52Z")
The next episode in the Avatar series will presumably be about the monetisation of Tree telepathy. Earth could do a lot with that sort of applied biotech. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2021, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/283 "2021-10-17T17:06:16Z")
Agreed. Women with large breasts are sometimes treated as if they’re a separate species. My example of Iconic But Awful is _Unforgiven._ What’s the big deal here? IMHO, it’s a standard revenge flick/retired gunslinger western, a plot at least as old as _Shane_. It ends with a ridiculous 1 vs 12 gunfight where only the 1 can hit anything. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2021, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/284 "2021-10-17T19:05:31Z")
> [@Capn\_Carl](#): > > It ends with a ridiculous 1 vs 12 gunfight where only the 1 can hit anything. That was sorta the point. Or one of the points, anyway. Unlike the characters of Little Bill and English Bob who took perverse pride in being dangerous men, William Munny wasn’t really part of the “gentleman” gunfighter ethos. He was just a drunken, vicious killer who was both good at killing and very, very lucky. He even says as much. Munny shot the sheriff and the panicked, wildly firing deputies and the rest of the town folk just froze or scattered in terror. These sort of encounters were rare, but not unknown. In the most spectacular [Jonathan Davis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_R._Davis) shot down seven men and killed four more with a bowie knife in a single encounter. Which honestly IS just kinda ridiculous, but apparently it happened as there were witnesses. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2021, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/285 "2021-10-17T19:42:33Z")
> [@Capn\_Carl](#): > > Agreed. Women with large breasts are sometimes treated as if they’re a separate species. > > My example of Iconic But Awful is _Unforgiven._ What’s the big deal here? IMHO, it’s a standard revenge flick/retired gunslinger western, a plot at least as old as _Shane_. It ends with a ridiculous 1 vs 12 gunfight where only the 1 can hit anything. That makes me think you either didn’t understand it or are remembering it wrong. The movie subverted the tropes of the standard gunslinger westerns. The standard gunslinger western stories were in the fictionalized stories that Saul Rubinek wrote in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2021, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/286 "2021-10-17T20:24:33Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > [@Jophiel](#): > > > > Avatar almost strikes me as anti-iconic (which is maybe iconic in its own way). It came out, everyone went to see it, you had silly news articles about people going insane with grief that they couldn’t live on Pandora then it completely fell off everyone’s radar. Outside of threads about movies, like this, I never see it referenced, quoted, meme’d, on a t-shirt or any signs that people remember it existed. For the past umpteen years, if anyone says “Avatar”, there’s a 98% chance they’re talking about the Airbender anime thing and not the bajillion dollar earning, tech-breaking film. It’s a weird rise and fall and I guess testament to how forgettable the movie really was. > > I agree about this and it’s kind of amazing. People still reference Titanic, especially the king of the world scene and that song, and DiCaprio and Winslet are still major stars, but Avatar? Nothing. And Sam Worthington still gets roles but he’s no A-Lister. Avatar better get “iconic” quick, because there’s like 4 more of them coming out soon. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2021, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/287 "2021-10-17T20:27:35Z")
Now, because this is Disney and they’re masters of marketing I’m probably wrong, but I am skeptical that anyone wants to see more of Avatar. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2021, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/288 "2021-10-17T20:31:03Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Now, because this is Disney and they’re masters of marketing I’m probably wrong, but I am skeptical that anyone wants to see more of Avatar. Let me introduce you to my daughter. She is 21 right now and was blown away by Avatar when it came out. It remains her favorite movie along with Titanic. We may just be too old. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2021, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/289 "2021-10-17T20:56:43Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Now, because this is Disney and they’re masters of marketing I’m probably wrong, but I am skeptical that anyone wants to see more of Avatar. They might have a decade ago after the first one came out. Instead they waited about the length of time between Star Wars trilogies. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2021, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/290 "2021-10-17T21:15:00Z")
> [@Capn\_Carl](#): > > My example of Iconic But Awful is _Unforgiven._ What’s the big deal here? IMHO, it’s a standard revenge flick/retired gunslinger western, a plot at least as old as _Shane_ . It ends with a ridiculous 1 vs 12 gunfight where only the 1 can hit anything. _Unforgiven_ was a deconstruction of the western genre as a whole though it’s a good western itself. Unlike _Shane,_ where there is a clear delineation between the good guys and the bad guys, no bright lines exists between the two in _Unforgiven._ Bill Munny is not a good guy. After all, he’s agreed to murder two cowboys for money not because he wants justice for Delilah. Nor is Sheriff Little Bill entirely bad. I think we can all agree that a sheriff should do what he can to prevent murder for hire in his jurisdiction. It’s far from the standard revenge flick here. None of us are happy when Quick Mike and Bunting are gunned down. One dies ignominiously on the shitter and the other’s last few moments are crying out in pain for a drink of water. The actors did a great job, the dialogue was good, and the characters were interesting. Little Bill spending some serious time disabusing Beauchamp, the dime novel author, of the fanciful stories told to him by English Bob was worth the price of admission alone. _Unforgiven_ is a great movie. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2021, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/291 "2021-10-17T21:32:58Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Bill Munny is not a good guy. After all, he’s agreed to murder two cowboys for money not because he wants justice for Delilah. You mean the known thief and murderer, depraved killer of women, children, animals, and most everything that walks or crawls was not a good guy? [ > [@](#): > > Munny tells Logan: “Ned, you remember that drover I shot through the mouth and his teeth came out the back of his head? I think about him now and again. He didn’t do anything to deserve to get shot, at least nothin’ I could remember when I sobered up.” > > His friend says “You ain’t like that no more.” Munny says, “That’s right. I’m just a fella now. I ain’t no different than anyone else no more.” But his voice lacks conviction, and we sense unfinished business in the air. ]([Unforgiven movie review & film summary (1992) | Roger Ebert](https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/great-movie-unforgiven-1992)) ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2021, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/292 "2021-10-17T22:30:04Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Jeez, I have to go back and watch this movie again (or at least the opening sequence)! 😍 I’m confused. If the link below is the opening scene in question, I’m not seeing the blatant big-boobed exploitation. Maybe there is a different opening like the very real alternate ending to Big? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/0HUf68gFGEE/maxresdefault.jpg "Saving Private Ryan opening cemetery scene") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HUf68gFGEE) ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2021, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/293 "2021-10-17T23:51:32Z")
I’ve never seen the movie, just watched your clip, and I agree with you. The two younger women do have nice-looking breasts, but doubt that I would’ve noticed it at all in a normal viewing situation. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/294 "2021-10-18T00:51:06Z")
I only thought one of the two younger women had a chest that was in any way out of the ordinary, and I really only noticed it because of a 2-second shot where they were framed. And you really shouldn’t have been looking at that part of the screen, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/295 "2021-10-18T01:05:06Z")
No unrealistic buxomness in the scene to my mind, but no matter how grandmotherly she became [this will always be Kathleen Byron.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-mvlVeEy9Y) ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/296 "2021-10-18T01:50:04Z")
I just rewatched Highlander on Netflix for the first time in a long time. Its much worse than I remember. I remember it being cheesy but watchable, but oh god its awful. Definitely iconic though. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/297 "2021-10-18T05:05:50Z")
William Goldman seems like a creep who likes to ogle teenage girls. When people talk about the opening part of Saving Private Ryan, they mean the part on Omaha Beach, not the very brief scene in the cemetery beforehand. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/298 "2021-10-18T14:22:01Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Jeez, I have to go back and watch this movie again (or at least the opening sequence)! 😍 Wow! What a disappointment that was! 😠 ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/299 "2021-10-18T14:37:31Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > William Goldman seems like a creep who likes to ogle teenage girls. Goldman, himself, qualifies as “iconic but awful.” ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/300 "2021-10-18T14:51:49Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > It’s like a _Choose Your Own Adventure_ book where you don’t actually have to go to the effort of making any choices. Love it! Your characterization of Friends is spot on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285.md?page=16)