# Iconic but awful **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [October 11, 2021, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285 "2021-10-11T02:10:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/301 "2021-10-18T14:52:35Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > but I am skeptical that anyone wants to see more of Avatar. Same. Now, take “anyone” with a grain of salt since the world is a big place and I’m sure _someone_ really wants more Avatar (nod to Loach’s daughter) but I find it hard to believe that the number is large enough to justify dropping $400mil (Avengers Endgame budget) on making more Avatar. Yeah, I’m older now and all but I hang out in some nerdy/geeky circles and no one seems interested, much less excited, for more Avatar. As you said though, it’s Disney and I’m sure they’ll make a bajillion bucks off the franchise anyway. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/302 "2021-10-18T15:02:32Z")
> [@Capn\_Carl](#): > > My example of Iconic But Awful is _Unforgiven._ What’s the big deal here? IMHO, it’s a standard revenge flick/retired gunslinger western, a plot at least as old as _Shane_ . It ends with a ridiculous 1 vs 12 gunfight where only the 1 can hit anything. I also rewatched this recently and thought it held up pretty well. While the final scene is a little bit over the top: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/KmhGYB4NdYc/maxresdefault.jpg ""Unforgiven" - Shootout Scene HD") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmhGYB4NdYc) The whole point of it is that, contrary to gunfighting tropes, drawing fast and blasting away doesn’t do much (given how inaccurate handguns were at the time), taking time and aiming is more effective (though hard to pull off if people are blasting away at you, but that is the advantage a cold hearted experienced killer like Clint’s character has over the posse members who talk a good game but haven’t actually shot anyone before.) Also while at first it seems like an 80s action movie scene, he doesn’t actually kill that many of his opponents after killing the Wild Bill and the saloon owner (and one of those he does shoot is running away at the time). ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/303 "2021-10-18T15:07:48Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > When people talk about the opening part of Saving Private Ryan, they mean the part on Omaha Beach, not the very brief scene in the cemetery beforehand. Yeah that scene more than makes up for the rest of the movie (which is pretty unremarkable but not awful IMO). I made the point in another thread, that the Omaha Beach scene is so good, and so unlike anything else ever made, Saving Private Ryan is still in contention for the best war move ever, purely on the back of that one scene. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/304 "2021-10-18T15:34:34Z")
Ten or twelve men gather, armed, for the purpose of shooting one man. He shows up, points a gun at someone, and none react, because drama. He shoots and none react, because drama. He aims at their leader and none react because drama. He pulls the trigger, and they _still_ stand there. Then he outguns all of them, because he’s another just a super gunslinger, he’s a super-duper gunslinger. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/305 "2021-10-18T15:40:23Z")
That’s kind of the point, saying you’re going to shoot somone is a lot easier than actually shooting someone. And William Munny has absolutely no problem shooting people, thats his skill, he’s not a super soldier or anything, he just knows how to shoot people and has no problem doing it. The others (other than Wild Bill, and I think its clear that was pretty much luck, and could have gone the other way) don’t, if you look at how they are portrayed shooting compared to Clint, I think thats clear. I’m not saying its hyper-realistic, but its not completely ridiculous either, it doesn’t break the willing suspension of disbelief for me. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/306 "2021-10-18T16:06:50Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > he just knows how to shoot people and has no problem doing it. That was the same thing in The Shootist. John Bernard Books: “It isn’t always being fast or even accurate that counts. It’s being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, aren’t willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull the trigger. I won’t.” As for Unforgiven, no movie that has this exchange can be all bad: Will Munny: It’s a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he’s got and all he’s ever gonna have. The Schofield Kid : Yeah, well, I guess they had it coming. Will Munny : We all got it coming, kid. ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/307 "2021-10-18T16:38:54Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Now, take “anyone” with a grain of salt since the world is a big place and I’m sure _someone_ really wants more Avatar (nod to Loach’s daughter) but I find it hard to believe that the number is large enough to justify dropping $400mil (Avengers Endgame budget) on making more Avatar. I have the same attitude, but then I recall the talk about Cameron making a movie about a story everyone knew the ending to, on a budget guaranteed to bankrupt the studio. All of the wise heads predicted that regardless of quality, _Titanic_ would, in the end, be a bust. So those predictions proved to be just a bit pessimistic, but when it was announced that Cameron had an even bigger budget to shoot a 3D sci fi movie (back when 3D was pretty much for cartoons and B-movies), it was obvious that this was a bridge to far, and it would go down as one of the biggest money losers in history. Again, the pessimists were just a bit off the mark. So even though I agree that we don’t need sequels to _Avatar_ and this has all the hallmarks of a box office bust of historic proportions, it’s James Cameron. Who knows? I’ll be interested to see if he can pull another rabbit out of the hat or not. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/308 "2021-10-18T16:48:36Z")
> [@Capn\_Carl](#): > > Ten or twelve men gather, armed, for the purpose of shooting one man. He shows up, points a gun at someone, and none react, because drama. He shoots and none react, because drama. He aims at their leader and none react because drama. He pulls the trigger, and they _still_ stand there. Then he outguns all of them, because he’s another just a super gunslinger, he’s a super-duper gunslinger. That’s the exact opposite of what it shows. It shows that both of the seasoned killers are not super duper gunslingers. They are not fast. They are not great shots. They are psychopaths who lack some basic human emotions that would make them flinch or hesitate when someone else is trying to kill them. See also: Andrew Jackson’s duel with Charles Dickinson. ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/309 "2021-10-18T16:58:31Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > It shows that both of the seasoned killers are not super duper gunslingers. They are not fast. They are not great shots. They are psychopaths who lack some basic human emotions that would make them flinch or hesitate when someone else is trying to kill them. I remember reading a book on Old West gunmen many years ago. In it, they interviewed an old cowboy who had lived in some of the most notorious towns during the tenure of some of the most notorious gunmen (I think the book was written in the 30’s or 40’s?). He remarked that the distinctive characteristic of the ones he had seen was not that they were fast, or accurate, but that they had zero hesitation in killing, in pulling the trigger, knowing that the bullet was going into another human being. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/310 "2021-10-18T18:25:46Z")
> [@Capn\_Carl](#): > > Then he outguns all of them, because he’s another just a super gunslinger, he’s a super-duper gunslinger. While others have countered the point, I want to make it another way from within the context of the movie itself. Earlier in the film, Ned, who had previously been a killer as well, cannot force himself to kill Davey as he’s trying to find cover after a broken leg when his horse was shot out from under him. Ned appears to try to take the shot, but cannot, he is almost unresponsive to Will’s cajoling, and in fact doesn’t even respond when Munny asks about the remaining ammunition in the rifle. And this is a man who has killed in the past, when ‘he was young and full of beans’. To think that a scratch posse that has just been formed (not Little Bill though) would freeze, or hesitate, or out-right panic and flee when the shooting starts is absolutely reasonable. And, flip side, if they’d had the time to psych themselves up, and were in the group mentality as the hunters, rather that the prey in this case, some of them probably would have found themselves more able. But they didn’t come to the bar to kill - and let’s be honest, Munny is a scary man who just shot the bartender in front of them without hesitation. Little Bill actually was the closest to superhuman there, he’s staring down a loaded shotgun with the knowledge that Munny is going to kill him, but gets a mulligan with a misfire _after_ a dramatic speech about what a coward Munny is and how everyone should kill Will the moment he fires. For that matter, I think in the context of the movie William Money isn’t even an anti-hero, he’s a flat out villain. When we root for him (and I admit I do), we often feel guilty, and we should. We find it easy to excuse him because the the other people are also horrible - which brings us back to the quote that for me, sums up the whole movie: “We all got it coming, kid.” There are few or no innocents here to be seen, which is what makes it an entirely different kettle of fish from the Westerns Unforgiven serves to deconstruct. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.E](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.e/32/8932_2.png) [@Mr.E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.E)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/311 "2021-10-18T19:59:43Z")
> [@peccavi](#): > > Cameron had an even bigger budget to shoot a 3D sci fi movie (back when 3D was pretty much for cartoons and B-movies) “Cartoon B-movie with a massive budget” is a pretty good description of Avatar. Honestly I wouldn’t mind seeing something that expands on the futuristic universe we get glimpses of in the first movie, but I don’t expect it to do anything but double down on “Look how cool all these 3D CGI alien environments are” which I don’t think will go as far today as it did in 2009. I expect we’ll get a set of movies that ought to have been an animated series that came out a decade ago. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/312 "2021-10-18T20:03:50Z")
Unforgiven is one of the greatest films of all time. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/313 "2021-10-18T21:31:50Z")
I wouldn’t say that much, but absolutely even if you don’t buy the the realism of the final shootout there is no way that makes Unforgiven “awful”. Hell, its still a really well done cowboy shootout, clearly right up there with the best of them, even if you see as no more realistic that than the shootout end of Fistful of Dollars, or any other cowboy throw-down. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/314 "2021-10-18T22:51:20Z")
Does anyone think “Who’s on first?” is funny? Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/315 "2021-10-18T22:59:48Z")
He’s the DH. Yes,I did. I haven’t seen the skit in awhile, but I chuckle at the increasingly exasperated Costello. Maybe it wouldn’t work as well with anyone else? ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/316 "2021-10-18T22:59:50Z")
I have never, ever met a person who didn’t find it eye-tearingly funny the first time they ever heard it. Even the very few who were adults when I showed it to them. But, yeah, after the first time. . … ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2021, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/317 "2021-10-18T23:10:49Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Does anyone think “Who’s on first?” is funny? Anyone? > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > He’s the DH. Well-played. > [@Biggirl](#): > > have never, ever met a person who didn’t find it eye-tearingly funny the first time they ever heard it. I showed it to my teenage son who doesn’t know jack about baseball and dismisses almost anything made pre-2005 as dorky and slow. He laughed. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2021, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/318 "2021-10-19T01:23:48Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Maybe it wouldn’t work as well with anyone else? Maybe you’re right. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/6ETjwNs3Qus/hqdefault.jpg "The Simpsons - Who's On First?") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ETjwNs3Qus) ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2021, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/319 "2021-10-19T02:20:10Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Does anyone think “Who’s on first?” is funny? Anyone? I was at the Baseball Hall of Fame a few weeks ago, and took a few minutes to watch it again. The surprise wore off years ago, but I still admire how well-crafted the writing is. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2021, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/320 "2021-10-19T08:15:44Z")
I saw it performed live at a comedy club once. It brought the house down. I’ve tried watching videos of Abbot and Costello online - not the same. That’s mainly due to video and especially sound quality, but also the need to tune in to really old speech patterns. Showing it tot he kids was a non-starter. Live performance took all of those barriers away, so the writing and characterisation could really come through. In particular, it’s the timing of the repeated “I don’t know… Third base!” that drives the rhythm of the piece. (The ending is weak though. “I don’t give a damn” was a strong meat back in the day, but milquetoast now. You could take the Deadwood approach and update to the language of equal offence but I don’t know if “Motherfucker” “He’s our shortstop” would work either) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285.md?page=17)