# Iconic but awful **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [October 11, 2021, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285 "2021-10-11T02:10:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/101 "2021-10-11T21:01:47Z")
Not till 86, but I’m not sure that really signifies much TBH - overnight TV tends not to exactly be high-quality. I’ve no idea what English stars of the 60s loved. The American market is bigger, so it pays more, so presumably a lot of them wanted to work there just like they do now. UK TV isn’t more intelligent - loads of it is dumb and always has been, sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. TBH I don’t think you can really judge it from the bits you got to see in the US. I mean, you didn’t even know we had multiple channels back then. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/102 "2021-10-11T21:07:26Z")
Come on! I knew you had 2 channels. No, UK tv was more intelligent just based on some demographic realities. They never ran series into the ground as if it never had to end. They seemed to be attuned to artsy stuff. The US audience was so vast it just couldn’t have the same reality as the UK. A “series” in the US and the UK meant totally different things, and that was based on not milking golden calves forever, which makes less intelligent tv IMO. But then the US did have its pockets of creativity. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/103 "2021-10-11T21:07:40Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Not till 86, but I’m not sure that really signifies much TBH - overnight TV tends not to exactly be high-quality. Not that different from the U.S., then. With few exceptions (such as live news or weather), there’s very little new/original programming that airs much later than midnight or 1 a.m., either on the broadcast networks or on cable. Most of it winds up being repeat showings of series that had aired during prime time that evening, re-runs of old series or movies, or infomercials and home shopping. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/104 "2021-10-11T21:14:25Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > That was a well established sitcom strategy, hence the use of the leads first name. They appeared as foils for eccentric characters. . Actually, I think it was more an attempt to cash in on established stars. Andy was lucky because he came to the attention of Danny Thomas, who knew he could carry a sitcom on the basis of his performance in _ **No Time for Sergeants** _. Dick van Dyke got noticed by Carl Reiner while he was appearing on Broadway in _ **Bye-Bye, Birdie** _. Fred MacMurray is something of an exception, both because the show was called _ **My Three Sons** _ and Fred himself was, I think, better known for playing dark roles in movies like _ **Double Indemnity** _ and _ **The Apartment** _. (He was, however, also Disney’s “Absent-Minded Professor.”) In the case of _ **Mary Tyler Moore** _, the title was pretty much a foregone conclusion because it was produced by MTM Enterprises, which was owned by Mary and her then-husband Grant Tinker. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/105 "2021-10-11T21:15:26Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > The American market is bigger, so it pays more, so presumably a lot of them wanted to work there just like they do now. Actually I meant rock stars. I always thought they were complaining about the BBC and loving US TV. They were known for being up all night. We always had original programming til 1:00 AM in the US. And movies would be on after that. They didn’t show old sitcoms usually. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/106 "2021-10-11T21:19:39Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Come on! I knew you had 2 channels. > > No, UK tv was more intelligent just based on some demographic realities. They never ran series into the ground as if it never had to end. They seemed to be attuned to artsy stuff. The US audience was so vast it just couldn’t have the same reality as the UK. A “series” in the US and the UK meant totally different things, and that was based on not milking golden calves forever, which makes less intelligent tv IMO. > > But then the US did have its pockets of creativity. But… You said you didn’t want to live in the UK because of the BBC, then when I pointed out that we’ve had more than the BBC for decades, you said you were old. And actually it was more than 2 channels even in the 60s. Some of our TV shows ran for decades, and not just the soaps. They had short seasons, but they came back every year. Last of the Summer Wine, a sitcom, ran for 37 years. It’d be nice to think our TV was more intelligent, but perhaps that was just the stuff you guys got. Also it’s surprising to hear that as a reason for not liking our TV so much you wouldn’t want to live here! 😄 ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/107 "2021-10-11T21:19:42Z")
I don’t think Fred was named Fred was he? You had Lucy and Ricky to start with. After that the deluge. I think we are both right. But once a show is greenlit it doesn’t matter much what the first name of the character is. Bob Newhart was another one. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/108 "2021-10-11T21:22:59Z")
My choice about where I would have wanted to live will be in abeyance until I get an actual detailed rundown of the channels, hours and variety of the various networks, and options I might have had. All night tv starting in 1986? 1986? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/109 "2021-10-11T21:26:11Z")
Fred’s character was named “Steve Douglas.” It was the early '60s, so he was (of course) an aerospace engineer. As _ **MAD Magazine** _ once pointed out, “Steve” is a good name because it “sounds more **American**. Can’t afford to offend the American Legion!” I mean, look at all the great leading characters named “Steve” in American popular culture. Steve Douglas, Steve Canyon, Steve Austin, Steve McGarrett… ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/110 "2021-10-11T21:29:15Z")
Huh? You didn’t want to live in the UK as a kid based on what you thought you knew about “the BBC” back then. How would giving you extra information _now_ change your opinion _then_? A “detailed rundown.” This is a discussion board - I am not your staff. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/111 "2021-10-11T21:29:51Z")
Hence even Dannys daughter could not keep the name Marlo. But she was Ann Marie which is not so white bread. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/112 "2021-10-11T21:29:52Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > You had Lucy and Ricky to start with. After that the deluge. Once again, Lucy and Ricky were both established stars and they owned the show. Hell, they owned Desilu Studios! (“Desilu,” geddit? 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/113 "2021-10-11T21:31:26Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > But she was Ann Marie which is not so white bread. I think we do our shopping at different supermarkets. 🤨 ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/114 "2021-10-11T21:32:33Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Huh? You didn’t want to live in the UK as a kid based on what you thought you knew about “the BBC” back then. How would giving you extra information _now_ change your opinion _then_ ? > > A “detailed rundown.” This is a discussion board - I am not your staff. > [@SciFiSam](#): > > But… You said you didn’t want to live in the UK because of the BBC, then when I pointed out that we’ve had more than the BBC for decades, you said you were old. And actually it was more than 2 channels even in the 60s. > > Some of our TV shows ran for decades, and not just the soaps. They had short seasons, but they came back every year. Last of the Summer Wine, a sitcom, ran for 37 years. I think you’re taking this a bit too serially. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/115 "2021-10-11T21:37:14Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Hence even Dannys daughter could not keep the name Marlo. But she was Ann Marie which is not so white bread. Actually, she’s on record as saying she wanted to call the show _ **Miss Independence** _. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/116 "2021-10-11T21:39:38Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Not that different from the U.S., then. With few exceptions (such as live news or weather), there’s very little new/original programming that airs much later than midnight or 1 a.m., either on the broadcast networks or on cable. Most of it winds up being repeat showings of series that had aired during prime time that evening, re-runs of old series or movies, or infomercials and home shopping. Yeah. These days there can be some decent cop shows and stuff on in the small hours, old episodes of course but it can be good to catch up on them. But loads of channels show crap or turn into shopping channels. For a while in the 1980/90s BBC2 turned its overnight platform to The Open University, which is a distance university that’s actually well-regarded. They broadcast lectures and some discussion panels and demonstrations of science experiments for their students to record and watch later. It was great TBH - as an insomniac child I learned some really esoteric stuff from there! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/117 "2021-10-11T21:42:00Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > No, UK tv was more intelligent just based on some demographic realities. They never ran series into the ground as if it never had to end. The UK soap _Coronation Street_ has been running since 1961. _Doctor Who_ has had two runs that have both lasted more than a decade. _Jonathan Creek_, _Midsomer Murders_, and _Hollyoaks_ have both been on since the '90s. Those are shows that are still being made - there’s of course stuff like _All Creatures Great and Small_, _Foyle’s War_, _The Vicar of Dibley_, _Rumpole on the Bailey_, which all had 10 year runs, or longer. And that’s just fiction. When you add in stuff like news programs (P_anorama_ started in 1953) game shows (_Mastermind_ debuted in '72) and children’s programming (_Blue Peter_ has been on-air since 1958) it really highlights how much you don’t know what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/118 "2021-10-11T21:44:45Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > _Doctor Who_ has had two runs that have both lasted more than a decade. In fact, the original run was for 26 years; the current run is on 16 years, and counting. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/119 "2021-10-11T21:47:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The UK soap _Coronation Street_ has been running since 1961. _Doctor Who_ has had two runs that have both lasted more than a decade. _Jonathan Creek_, _Midsomer Murders_, and _Hollyoaks_ have both been on since the '90s. Those are shows that are still being made - there’s of course stuff like _All Creatures Great and Small_, _Foyle’s War_, _The Vicar of Dibley_, _Rumpole on the Bailey_, which all had 10 year runs, or longer. And that’s just fiction. When you add in stuff like news programs (P_anorama_ started in 1953) game shows (_Mastermind_ debuted in '72) and children’s programming (_Blue Peter_ has been on-air since 1958) it really highlights how much you don’t know what you’re talking about. I doubt any of the series you name have suffered such dramatic losses of quality as American ones that have been around for years, have they? I watch a lot of British TV, and I’ve never felt any long-running series has gone so far downhill. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/120 "2021-10-11T21:49:09Z")
I’m trying to think of a show with an established star who used their first name, and who wasn’t the calm at the center who needed the eccentrics on the show, though. Who was basically a lunatic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285.md?page=7)