# Iconic but awful **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [October 11, 2021, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285 "2021-10-11T02:10:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/121 "2021-10-11T21:50:21Z")
_ **Lucy** _, in its various iterations? All of the comedy centered around her and her antics. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/122 "2021-10-11T21:52:49Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I doubt any of the series you name have suffered such dramatic losses of quality as American ones that have been around for years, have they? Many fans of _Doctor Who_ (myself included) felt that the latter part of the series’ original run, particularly the final few years, with Sylvester McCoy as the Doctor, weren’t up to the previous level of story quality, and that may have led to the series’ cancellation. For that matter, a lot of the fans of the show’s current run felt that the most recent few seasons (under showrunner Chris Chibnall) weren’t very good, and many of them are excited that former showrunner Russell T. Davies is coming back to the show. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/123 "2021-10-11T21:53:05Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I doubt any of the series you name have suffered such dramatic losses of quality as American ones that have been around for years, have they? I don’t know, man. Give me a minute to binge watch sixty-one years of _Coronation Street_ and I’ll get back to you. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/124 "2021-10-11T21:54:14Z")
For a second there, I thought you’d called me “Guv.” 😄 ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/125 "2021-10-11T21:55:15Z")
Or I don’t care to pick and parse examples and anecdotes here. My point was that “series” as I understand it in the UK is like a “season” in the US. To be renewed for another “series” is more rare and dramatically justified, but still is the equivalent of being renewed for another “season” in the US. To be renewed for another season in the US is the only point of the game, and not to do so is a failure. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/126 "2021-10-11T21:56:03Z")
I forgot to add that in. Except Lucy. She wasn’t the only self named character though. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/127 "2021-10-11T21:57:51Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I feel sorry for writers who are locked into trying to grind out a quality script every week from September through April or May. (Usually, they fail.) > > I can understand how they can burn out completely after a few years. It is the ghetto of screenwriting, or at least the Single A League. There is an apocryphal story that Charlie Kaufman (of _Being John Malkovich_ and _Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind_) wrote a script while working on “Ned and Stacey” where the main characters basically started trying to murder one another with elaborate death traps. I’ve never seen the script or talked to anyone who worked on staff but talk about it circulated for years as some act of radical defiance in an industry where you are just supposed to grind out droll pablum at an industrial pace. There is no quality expected or even particularly wanted in the standard sitcom format, because it might challenge viewers and make them uncomfortable, or worse, tax their attention span. The fact that _Arrested Development_ attracted a loyal but tiny following just cemented that line of thinking, which is why we have shows like _King of Queens_ and _According to Jim_. Ugh! Stranger ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/128 "2021-10-11T21:58:29Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > To be renewed for another season in the US is the only point of the game, and not to do so is a failure. For some it is. For others it isn’t. _ **Dick van Dyke** _, _ **MTM** _, _ **Cheers!** _, and _ **Seinfeld** _ could all have gone on longer, but they did the smart thing and called it quits. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/129 "2021-10-11T22:03:16Z")
Right. _Some_ shows (like _ **Seinfeld** _) strive for quality, but most don’t even bother. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/130 "2021-10-11T22:05:01Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > To be renewed for another season in the US is the only point of the game, and not to do so is a failure. To build on this: Yes, getting renewed is important in the U.S., not only to keep your cast and crew employed, but also to build up enough episodes of the series for it to be viable as a second-run show (in syndication to local stations, and/or for cable channels), as this is an important source of revenue for the studios. The conventional rule of thumb in the past for this was roughly four seasons, or about 100 episodes, but I think that number may not be as relevant anymore. But, in the industry, renewals also typically are tied to pay raises, particularly for the lead actors, and there’s a balancing act there – even if your show is reasonably successful, each year, it may get more expensive to produce it. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/131 "2021-10-11T22:09:00Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > But, in the industry, renewals also typically are tied to pay raises, particularly for the lead actors, and there’s a balancing act there – even if your show is reasonably successful, each year, it may get more expensive to produce it. If I understand correctly, this is why _ **Married … with Children** _ was cancelled. Not because the humor was gross, the kids had grown up, and the relationship between Al and Peggy had gotten stale. The producers simply couldn’t afford to keep paying the actors more each year, so they pulled the plug. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/132 "2021-10-11T22:10:26Z")
No, it’s the same here for the most part. Some shows seemed to go on forever despite never being that good to begin with and getting worse as time went on. I’m sure Miller would back me up about My Family being one of those, if he ever had the misfortune of having to watch it. The main stars were even well aware it’s shit, at least later on (apparently they refused to film one episode because the script was so awful) and they’re established, respected actors with good careers - it’s like they were filming it out of penance. Red Dwarf is another that seriously declined in quality. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/133 "2021-10-11T22:20:59Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Right. _Some_ shows (like _ **Seinfeld** _ ) strive for quality, but most don’t even bother. I think the writing for _Seinfeld_ was 80% Larry David even when he wasn’t credited. I get why people like _Seinfeld_ but it’s not personally my cup of tea, and as far as quality of the finished product I’d argue that Jason Alexander and Julia Louis-Dreyfus carried the baton most of the distance, while Jerry Seinfeld just played a slightly more smug version of himself, and Michael Richards did the exact same schtick for nine years running. A rare sitcom saved by the writing over the appeal of the lead character rather than the other way around. Still, it was better than the vast majority of sitcom fare, and particularly public favorite _Friends_, a show so generic that they didn’t even bother giving it a real title. Which, I think, is probably kind of the point; the characters are so bland the viewer can see themselves being one of them, just less attractive and not living in a gigantic Manhattan apartment with nothing but free time. It’s like a _Choose Your Own Adventure_ book where you don’t actually have to go to the effort of making any choices. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/134 "2021-10-11T23:00:23Z")
The Deer Hunter. They could really have used more editing. The wedding scene lasted longer than a Hollywood marriage. The pace of the entire movie was glacial and the plot wasn’t terribly interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Dropo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Dropo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dropo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/135 "2021-10-11T23:10:24Z")
The iconic status of _Psycho_ (1960) is well-established, yet I would argue it is an awful film. Its primary awfulness lies not in the fact that it was cheaply made (with a Canadian TV crew), nor that it relies so heavily on shock – the most primitive and facile of a filmmaker’s tools; akin to yelling “boo” in a dark room – but rather its legacy of establishing commercially the aesthetic conceit that characters only exist to be killed off in gratuitously violent ways (what I call “Cinema of the Victim”). There had been many other films previously where the cast mainly existed to be killed off, but _Psycho_ set a standard by lavishing such care, attention and detail on the murders themselves that they reduced the rest of the film to (sometimes-interminable) padding. A predictable succession of more or less gruesomely staged death scenes is inherently a dehumanizing experience and not my idea of entertainment at all. The legacy of _Psycho_ can be seen in the generally worthless lot of Italian _giallo_ movies starting in the late 1960s, the heinous rot of U.S. slasher films of the 1970s, right up to the “Torture Porn” of the 2000s. And don’t get me started on _Vertigo_. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/136 "2021-10-11T23:19:19Z")
> [@Dropo](#): > > And don’t get me started on _Vertigo_ . I was afraid to show my wife Vertigo because she loves other Hitch movies, and I didn’t want to ruin them for her retroactively. 🙂 But it turns out, she loves it! I’m like, you know Scotty isn’t a good guy, right? Even if he is played by gosh darnit Jimmy Stewart? ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/137 "2021-10-11T23:49:03Z")
The original _Get Smart_ TV series. I loved it as a kid. Seeing Max declare “Missed it by _that_ much”/“And _loving_ it”/“I asked you not to tell me that” once a week was enough to entertain a 10-year old. But watching a whole season of it in one sitting as an adult was a letdown. ---
**Author:** ![gre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d78d45/32.png) [@gre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gre)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2021, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/138 "2021-10-12T01:23:39Z")
[quote=“Sunny\_Daze, post:1, topic:952285, full:true”] I’m watching John Carpenter’s _They Live_ right now and boy, howdy, is it awful. There are some truly iconic scenes, but the Roddy Piper and his hair are indescribably bad. The make up, the clothes, the sets, the script - it is all SO BAD. “Life’s a bitch and she’s back in heat.” What the hell?[/quote] Totally agree. It’s worth seeing because it’s well-known, and if someone didn’t have 90 mins to kill, seeing Roddy put on the sunglasses and see the secret messages is a clip worth seeing, and seeing everyone see the aliens at the end is a worthwhile clip, but other than that… ---
**Author:** ![gre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d78d45/32.png) [@gre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gre)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2021, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/139 "2021-10-12T01:32:22Z")
> [@Jihi](#): > > The Graduate is not terrible but very average until the last 10 seconds or so. I saw this a few years ago, and my memory is that I was at least interested until the point where Anne Bancroft found that Dustin Hoffman was interested in her daughter instead now, and her face just fell. After that, I wasn’t able to shift over well into caring what was going on with this daughter. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2021, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285/140 "2021-10-12T01:42:31Z")
It really helps to view _The Graduate_ through the lens of a deliberate attempt to take the stock romantic comedy trope of a love triangle but treat the situation straight instead of hitting comedic beats for yucks. That the ‘humor’ is offputting and the characters are all either raging assholes or clueless bimbos (I love the “Makeout King” who proposes to the Elaine by telling that they’d make a good team) is deliberate. From a framing and filming standpoint, Mike Nichols broke a bunch of established ‘rules’ that resulted in iconic scenes that filmmakers have aped since then. I can understand why some people don’t care for it but it is one of my favorite movies. Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iconic-but-awful/952285.md?page=8)