# ID a Skull **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 2, 2001, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-a-skull/91141 "2001-11-02T16:19:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2001, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-a-skull/91141/21 "2001-11-02T22:33:14Z")
My WAG is that it’s some sort of manta or sting ray. No luck so far in finding confirmation on the net. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2001, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-a-skull/91141/22 "2001-11-02T22:35:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Terminus Est \* > \*\*My WAG is that it’s some sort of manta or sting ray. No luck so far in finding confirmation on the net. \*\* Mantas and rays are largely cartilaginous, like sharks. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2001, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-a-skull/91141/23 "2001-11-02T22:36:30Z")
I mean “mantas and **other** rays”, of course… ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2001, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-a-skull/91141/24 "2001-11-02T22:44:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Darwin’s Finch \* > \*\*Mantas and rays are largely cartilaginous, like sharks. \*\* Yes. It’s kind of hard to tell on the web whether that’s bone or calcified cartilage. If that supposed mandible is actually a pectoral girdle of some sort, then it’s probably not a fish. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2001, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-a-skull/91141/25 "2001-11-02T22:50:37Z")
My SWAG at this point is catfish. Certainly the roof of the skull is like that of certain catfish, as is the fin spine. I’m not so sure about the pectoral girdle. Terminus Est, that’s definitely bone. And some fish have pectoral girdles. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2001, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-a-skull/91141/26 "2001-11-02T22:57:12Z")
Oh, I agree that it’s probably bone. But upon seeing the pictures, the word “manta” just popped into my head. Hence my extremely-WAG. ---
**Author:** ![chickendoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@chickendoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chickendoc)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2001, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-a-skull/91141/27 "2001-11-02T22:58:21Z")
I made a few more pics of the “spur”. The skull is really lite. I can believe the fish observation, but are those little “teeth” supposed to the the start of the fin? Negatory on the manta ray or shark hypothesis. This is central Texas we’re talking about. Thank you all for your help. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2001, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-a-skull/91141/28 "2001-11-02T23:00:51Z")
[Fish skeleton](http://library.thinkquest.org/C0124402/data/images/2/2skeleton.gif) The elements of the skeleton you seem to have are the braincase (mostly), pectoral girdle, plus one of the pelvic spines. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2001, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-a-skull/91141/29 "2001-11-02T23:02:51Z")
I agree with the catfish skull. See [here](http://www.amonline.net.au/fishes/fishfacts/fish/cnidogla.htm) for a both a ventral and dorsal view of a catfish skull. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2001, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-a-skull/91141/30 "2001-11-02T23:05:21Z")
Note that my above link is for an Australian catfish; I’m not implying that’s what I think this is. It’s just the best on-line pic of a catfish skull I’ve been able to find thus far… ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2001, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-a-skull/91141/31 "2001-11-02T23:31:07Z")
Catfish typically have single sharp spines at the leading edge of the dorsal fin and each pectoral fin. Both [Channel](http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/fish/infish/species/ccf/ccf.htm) and [Flathead](http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/fish/infish/species/flt/flt.htm) Catfish occur in Texas and could be big enough to have a skull of the size you found. ---
**Author:** ![chickendoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@chickendoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chickendoc)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2001, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-a-skull/91141/32 "2001-11-02T23:40:52Z")
Thanks for your help. It definitely looks like the catfish skull listed on the net. I was hoping it was something a little more sexier. Maybe an escaped man/dog eating anaconda for instance. Oh well, maybe next time. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![mmmiiikkkeee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mmmiiikkkeee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmiiikkkeee)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2001, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-a-skull/91141/33 "2001-11-03T03:04:39Z")
It’s definately part of a fish skull; most likely a catfish. The spur would be one the the fin spines, probably a pectoral fin… though I’m not sure; the groove probly being where the fin or ray tissue was held in. You have different peices of the skeleton. The lower jaw looking bit would be the pelvic girdle. You see how it’s meshed together down the center, has quite a broad flat bottom, and is very thin and fragile looking alone the front edge. The back be is pointy with some thin cartilage that looks dried and curled, which is a problem when drying fish bones. A lower jaw will usually be more robust, have a hinge, and be more of a frame with tissue covering the bottom of the mouth; this is more of a thin plate, which would be found closer to the fishes throat than head. The only part of the head you have is the neurocranium; the part that houses the brain and top strip down the “forehead and nose”. The two tabs near the front would be the mesethmoid, the wings coming down and out the back the sphenotics, and I can sort of make out the basioccipitals and parasphenoids at the back too. These bones are all fused together on this part of the skull, while the superficial face bones like the maxilla, dentary, opercular and orbital bones all come apart easily once decomposition starts being only held together with cartilage. There is I think the first vertebrae still stuck on the back, which is common too (I have prepared fish skulls for university). The skull being found in a backyard would explain why it was in peices, and only those more solid/substancial peices being left - no teeth found 'cause those bones carrying them got scattered somewhere else… not that catfish teeth would be much to look at. ---
**Author:** ![chickendoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@chickendoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chickendoc)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2001, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-a-skull/91141/34 "2001-11-03T15:18:53Z")
Thank you all for your help. Lots of good info. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2001, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-a-skull/91141/35 "2001-11-03T15:42:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mmmiiikkkeee \* > **The lower jaw looking bit would be the pelvic girdle.** Good post, mmmiiikkkeee, but one nitpick: It’s a pectoral girdle, not a pelvic. In catfish in particular the pectoral would be associated with the head. I don’t think catfish have such a robust pelvic girdle, and anyway their pelvic fins are well behind the head. ---
**Author:** ![mmmiiikkkeee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mmmiiikkkeee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmiiikkkeee)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2001, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-a-skull/91141/36 "2001-11-04T04:13:31Z")
Ahh yes… we don’t have channel catfish up here so I’ve never sliced one open - and catfish overall come in so many different shapes. Some of the more advanced fish have the pectorals up more on the sides of the body, while the pelvic fins are pushed right up almost under their heads; that is where you find really robust pelvic girdles (cottids are a good example). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-a-skull/91141.md?page=1)