# ID and contextualize this SF novel (WARNING: depraved content)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [October 2, 2019, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156 "2019-10-02T15:47:23Z")
**Posts on this page:** 17
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2019, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156/1 "2019-10-02T15:47:23Z")
Between 1982 and 1986, when I was a wide-eyed young lass not yet educated in the ways of the (sex) world by the internet and Dan Savage, I read a science fiction novel about a dystopian future. There was a lot of, um, urination and defecation in it.
For example, one scene I remember
had a female character secretly tailing another female character (her sister, I think) and witnessing a rough sex scene (rape? probably) from the shadows. It arouses her, she reaches her hand down to masturbate, and feels a stream of her own hot urine over her hand as she rubs herself to orgasm. (Yes, I’m aware that biologically that makes no sense, as females can’t urinate and orgasm simultaneously. Even in my 20s I knew that.)
Also, though I remember it less clearly than the scene above, I think that in this future dystopian society, young women had to serve, in effect, as sex slaves for any man who wanted them, the theory being that they would learn from the experience to be more sexually adept when they were older. The same situation might have held for young men as well, I can’t remember.
It was an unsubtle and unpleasant read, but at the time I read it, I took it strictly as metaphor: the author was trying to tell us “society is just like piss and shit! And it treats women like crap! Isn’t it terrible?” So while I disliked the book, I didn’t think anything more about it - a legit message, poorly delivered, yawn, on to the next book.
Looking back on it now, my interpretation is less charitable and more disturbing. Was the author getting his rocks off by writing about these nasty fantasies, making readers part of his (or her, I suppose, but seems likely the author was male) fetishes? YUCK. One wonders how such a book made it into mainstream SF (if that term is not an oxymoron with respect to the 1980s, when SF had a worse rep than it does now).
Anyway, I’ve always been kind of curious. Was the book as terrible as I remember, or was I just easily shocked? Was the author genuinely trying to present a message about the world, or was he just having a little fetish-indulgent sexy time at the expense of readers?
I’m not sure why I care, but I guess it’s interesting to see how one’s perspective on books is different at different stages of one’s life. Though next time I try that exercise, I hope I’ll choose a more worthy book.
.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156/2 "2019-10-02T16:17:17Z")
Sounds like something Philip Farmer would write.
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### Author:  [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156/3 "2019-10-02T17:20:19Z")
Hmmm…I don’t think so. I don’t recall it being a well known SF author. I could be wrong, of course.
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### Author:  [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156/4 "2019-10-02T17:50:36Z")
I’m not familiar with the story in your OP, but it reminds me of one I read, called Under the Hollywood Sign by Tom Reamy (1975). It’s a first person story about an LAPD a cop who is totally not gay but insists in describing in detail how much he finds male bods hot (not gay!) and he finds these extremely beautiful guys hanging around accidents. He investigates, and eventually kidnaps and rapes one :eek: (but he’s not gay! Absolutely not!). Eventually it dies.
At the time, I wasn’t sure what the author’s point was. I’m still not sure. I’m not sure even if he was pro-gay or anti-gay or just writing out his own fantasies. Or dealing with personal religious issues.
Whatever it was, it made an impression on me, just probably not the one the author intended.
[Story.](https://www.lexal.net/scifi/scifiction/classics/classics_archive/reamy4/index.html)
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156/5 "2019-10-02T20:00:42Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#):
>
> females can’t urinate and orgasm simultaneously
I think this[isn’t true](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coital_incontinence). And that’s leaving aside squirting, which may or may not also be mostly urine.
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### Author:  [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156/6 "2019-10-02T20:15:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> I think this[isn’t true](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coital_incontinence). And that’s leaving aside squirting, which may or may not also be mostly urine.
It’s urine. _Maybe_ it contains extra secretions in it, but it’s still urine.
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156/7 "2019-10-02T20:53:09Z")
It’s not familiar to me, but whenever I think of “sexually depraved science fiction”, I think of Samuel Delaney. Could it be something of his?
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### Author:  [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2019, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156/8 "2019-10-02T21:27:50Z")
Uh, never mind the squirting digression. I withdraw my comment about simultaneous orgasm and urination.
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### Author:  [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156/9 "2019-10-02T21:48:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> Sounds like something Philip Farmer would write.
Are you sure it wasn’t written by Butters Stotch? It sounds like _The Poop That Took A Pee_.
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### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2019, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156/10 "2019-10-03T00:14:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> It’s not familiar to me, but whenever I think of “sexually depraved science fiction”, I think of Samuel Delaney. Could it be something of his?
I tend to think of Sharon Green. I knew someone who dated her a couple times back in the day and commented that she thought that if an encounter didn’t end up with someone bruised and bleeding it wasn’t much fun. Her writing sort of is like that - lots of domination, bondage and rape going on. I have read porn that didn’t have that much sex going on.
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### Author:  [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2019, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156/11 "2019-10-03T00:31:52Z")
3 guesses:
1. Bernie Sanders
2. Harlan Ellison
3. Marquis de Sade
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### Author:  [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2019, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156/12 "2019-10-03T00:40:11Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#):
>
> Between 1982 and 1986, when I was a wide-eyed young lass not yet educated in the ways of the (sex) world by the internet and Dan Savage, I read a science fiction novel about a dystopian future. There was a lot of, um, urination and defecation in it.
>
> For example, one scene I remember
>
> had a female character secretly tailing another female character (her sister, I think) and witnessing a rough sex scene (rape? probably) from the shadows. It arouses her, she reaches her hand down to masturbate, and feels a stream of her own hot urine over her hand as she rubs herself to orgasm. (Yes, I’m aware that biologically that makes no sense, as females can’t urinate and orgasm simultaneously. Even in my 20s I knew that.)
>
> Also, though I remember it less clearly than the scene above, I think that in this future dystopian society, young women had to serve, in effect, as sex slaves for any man who wanted them, the theory being that they would learn from the experience to be more sexually adept when they were older. The same situation might have held for young men as well, I can’t remember.
>
> It was an unsubtle and unpleasant read, but at the time I read it, I took it strictly as metaphor: the author was trying to tell us “society is just like piss and shit! And it treats women like crap! Isn’t it terrible?” So while I disliked the book, I didn’t think anything more about it - a legit message, poorly delivered, yawn, on to the next book.
>
> Looking back on it now, my interpretation is less charitable and more disturbing. Was the author getting his rocks off by writing about these nasty fantasies, making readers part of his (or her, I suppose, but seems likely the author was male) fetishes? YUCK. One wonders how such a book made it into mainstream SF (if that term is not an oxymoron with respect to the 1980s, when SF had a worse rep than it does now).
>
> Anyway, I’ve always been kind of curious. Was the book as terrible as I remember, or was I just easily shocked? Was the author genuinely trying to present a message about the world, or was he just having a little fetish-indulgent sexy time at the expense of readers?
>
> I’m not sure why I care, but I guess it’s interesting to see how one’s perspective on books is different at different stages of one’s life. Though next time I try that exercise, I hope I’ll choose a more worthy book.
>
> .
Possibly “The Rainbow Cadenza” [The Rainbow Cadenza - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rainbow_Cadenza)
"However, women, greatly outnumbered by men, are required to perform a three-year term of sexual servitude, and the “Touchables” underclass can be hunted for sport. "
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### Author:  [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156/13 "2019-10-03T01:00:05Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#):
>
> Possibly “The Rainbow Cadenza” [The Rainbow Cadenza - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rainbow_Cadenza)
>
> "However, women, greatly outnumbered by men, are required to perform a three-year term of sexual servitude, and the “Touchables” underclass can be hunted for sport. "
Out of curiosity I looked up that book on Goodreads. One of the user reviews said “women are forced into prostitution… and soil themselves at the slightest provocation.” That does sound a lot like what was described in the OP.
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### Author:  [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2019, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156/14 "2019-10-03T01:14:41Z")
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> It’s not familiar to me, but whenever I think of “sexually depraved science fiction”, I think of Samuel Delaney. Could it be something of his?
That was my first thought. Or something in the Gor-verse.
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### Author:  [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2019, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156/15 "2019-10-03T01:52:04Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#):
>
> That was my first thought. Or something in the Gor-verse.
Granted its been awhile since I read the Gor-verse - and I don’t recall reading past book #20, I don’t recall anything like this in them - sure, lots of slave bound sex - but nothing quite like that.
Maybe in ‘[Imaginative Sex](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginative_Sex)’ by Norman? (I have a copy somewhere, but that particular book was pretty hard to find in the early days).
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### Author:  [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2019, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156/16 "2019-10-03T05:03:27Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#):
>
> Out of curiosity I looked up that book on Goodreads. One of the user reviews said “women are forced into prostitution… and soil themselves at the slightest provocation.” That does sound a lot like what was described in the OP.
That might be it! If so, I think my 20-something self didn’t fully grasp what the author was trying to say.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2019, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-and-contextualize-this-sf-novel-warning-depraved-content/841156/17 "2019-10-03T05:48:01Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#):
>
> Or something in the Gor-verse.
I’ve only read one Gor book (_Players of…_), but the sex in that was far from explicit.