# ID Cards: If We Keep Inventing New Excuses One Will Eventually Work **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 26, 2005, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-cards-if-we-keep-inventing-new-excuses-one-will-eventually-work/305582 "2005-05-26T11:17:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-cards-if-we-keep-inventing-new-excuses-one-will-eventually-work/305582/41 "2005-07-16T23:53:05Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > So far every large UK governemental IT project has cost three to four times the original estimate, and in some cases these projects never functioned fully, think of the Child Support Agency for example. > > So far independant estimate put the cost at around £10Bn to £19Bn rather than the £6Bn the governement claims, the independant estimate happend to come from the London School of Economics whose report authors have been severely criticised by the governement -who commissioned the report in the first place! > > Although I can provide no proof othr than instinct and wry observation about what I have seen happen on the ground in large government organisations, I am pretty sure it’ll pan out to well over £30Bn and it will still not do what is being asked. Wait, are these British billions? Like, a million millions? That’s…incredible. And, I’m not sure what you mean by IT. Information Technology? The bad guy from _A Wrinkle in Time_? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-cards-if-we-keep-inventing-new-excuses-one-will-eventually-work/305582/42 "2005-07-16T23:54:49Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > OK, am I the only one reading this like Scumpup is suggesting that HSHP was soliciting blow jobs from his mother? No, Otto, that is what he suggested. Never heard a white guy try to tell ‘yo mama’ jokes? ---
**Author:** ![Sarah\_Woodruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sarah\_Woodruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah_Woodruff)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2005, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-cards-if-we-keep-inventing-new-excuses-one-will-eventually-work/305582/43 "2005-07-17T02:03:24Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > Is there no thread topic that can’t be hijacked into a Monty Python parody? …and now for something completely different… > [@](#): > > The sacrifice of some personal details for a national identity card would be worth it if it helps protect Australians against terrorists, Prime Minister John Howard says. > > Mr Howard has put the issue of a national identity card back on the agenda despite having opposed the Hawke Labor government’s unsuccessful push for one in 1987. Australia excels in originality. [http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=9685](http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=9685) ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2005, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-cards-if-we-keep-inventing-new-excuses-one-will-eventually-work/305582/44 "2005-07-17T02:44:38Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > No, Otto, that is what he suggested. Never heard a white guy try to tell ‘yo mama’ jokes? Oh, OK, I wasn’t sure if it was intentional. I’ll just take the woosh and go sit over there, all right? ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Side\_of\_the\_Floyd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Dark\_Side\_of\_the\_Floyd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Side_of_the_Floyd)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2005, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-cards-if-we-keep-inventing-new-excuses-one-will-eventually-work/305582/45 "2005-07-17T03:03:10Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > OK, am I the only one reading this like Scumpup is suggesting that HSHP was soliciting blow jobs from his mother? I read it that way too. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2005, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-cards-if-we-keep-inventing-new-excuses-one-will-eventually-work/305582/46 "2005-07-17T07:04:47Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Actually, in the UK the government owns your behind lock, stock, and two smoking barrels. It can do anything it wants to you at any time. Point of order: it’s the monarch who owns everyone and everything - we’re all subjects of the monarch. The government just behaves as if it does. And long may QE2 reign - Bigears will be an unmitigated disaster. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2005, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-cards-if-we-keep-inventing-new-excuses-one-will-eventually-work/305582/47 "2005-07-17T07:42:03Z")
> [@Sarah Woodruff](#): > > …and now for something completely different… > > Australia excels in originality. > > [http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=9685](http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=9685) Don’t worry **Sarah**. Even living in these _terrifying_ times, I really doubt that the Australian populace will let this get through. It’ll be just like every other time they’ve brought NID’s to the table, and the electorate have yawned, scratched their balls, and told the sitting gummint to “fuck orf we like things just the way they are thankyouse very much.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-cards-if-we-keep-inventing-new-excuses-one-will-eventually-work/305582/48 "2005-07-18T13:38:00Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > I hear Identity Cards will protect us from cancer AND rocket-powered monkeys. Why do you hate the UK? 😉 Luckily I’ve finished my tea, or it’d be spewed all over my keyboard. Still, I don’t get the general repugnance inspired by IDs. Since starting to drive at 16, I’ve had to carry some sort of state-issued ID, and throughout my public life beginning with college, I’ve had to carry various IDs. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-cards-if-we-keep-inventing-new-excuses-one-will-eventually-work/305582/49 "2005-07-18T13:58:37Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Wait, are these British billions? Like, a million millions? That’s…incredible. > > And, I’m not sure what you mean by IT. Information Technology? The bad guy from _A Wrinkle in Time_? a) No, we’ve more or less given up on that, certainly when we’re talking about money. We’ve given in to the foul abomination that is the American billion. :: barf :: b) Yes, information technology. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-cards-if-we-keep-inventing-new-excuses-one-will-eventually-work/305582/50 "2005-07-18T14:08:44Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > …but what about the rocket monkeys? We were promised rocket monkeys. I want to see the rocket monkeys … Well it goes without saying that when terrorists discover the awesome destructive potential of monkeys riding explosive tipped rockets ID cards will have to become the size and shape of legionary shields and be made of depleted uranium. Charles Clarke assures me that the eventual cost of such a card will not rise above the low 6 figures though. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-cards-if-we-keep-inventing-new-excuses-one-will-eventually-work/305582/51 "2005-07-18T14:12:19Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Do the rocket monkeys wear the rockets on their backs, or do they sit on top of them? Whichever allows them to blend into the unsuspecting populance more easily. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-cards-if-we-keep-inventing-new-excuses-one-will-eventually-work/305582/52 "2005-07-21T20:52:32Z")
I have a friend who is pretty far along the political spectrum (anti-gay, supports ID cards etc). I asked him if ID cards would be expensive? “Yes, they would undoubtedly cost far more than the original estimate.” Would they help against terrorism? “Probably not.” So why do we need ID cards? “To help identify horribly mutilated victims.” Well there you have it. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-cards-if-we-keep-inventing-new-excuses-one-will-eventually-work/305582/53 "2005-07-21T21:36:00Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > Still, I don’t get the general repugnance inspired by IDs. Since starting to drive at 16, I’ve had to carry some sort of state-issued ID, and throughout my public life beginning with college, I’ve had to carry various IDs. I’m not so much worried about the slippery slope into Big Brother State aspects; my main beefs with the idea are that it’s going to be expensive (it will run massively over budget, no matter how preposterously high the budget is actually set), pointless, probably rather inconvenient and most of all, it’s certain to be a massive, embarrassing fuck-up. As has already been mentioned, the government _simply can’t do_ big I.T. projects. ---
**Author:** ![Axel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6de8d8/32.png) [@Axel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Axel)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-cards-if-we-keep-inventing-new-excuses-one-will-eventually-work/305582/54 "2005-07-21T22:00:20Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > Is there no thread topic that can’t be hijacked into a Monty Python parody? Did the Pythons do it too? I thought it was a Peter Cook/Dudley Moore sketch. I hate ID cards because of the cost too. Hell, if they want a big new project to waste tons of money on, I’m sure I can think of something better. A DI card - a personalised message for every citizen from beyond the grave. Free copies of _Life of Brian_ and the entire _Blackadder_ for every citizen. A huge weekend-long street party in every city, subsidised by the government, that every citizen is compelled to attend and pay £90 for. Free personalised beer! Almost anything would be more worthwhile than this! ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-cards-if-we-keep-inventing-new-excuses-one-will-eventually-work/305582/55 "2005-07-22T11:28:13Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > As has already been mentioned, the government _simply can’t do_ big I.T. projects. As I said, it’s not that the government can’t do big I.T. projects, but that _no-one_ can do big I.T. projects as long as the aims and objectives are unfocused. Governments are prone to this sort of mess because those ultimately in charge of the projects, the Politicians, keep mucking about with the specifications, the aims and those in charge. Chiefly because they don’t understand what they’re trying to do and they’re paying wads of cash to consultants who have it in their interests to ensure that the aims and objectives remain unfocused. That way maximizes the money spent and no-one can ever pin subsequent failure on any one particular person. But once you add deliberate political spinning into the mix you are practically guaranteed failure. That way **no-one** has a clue what’s supposed to be achieved. This is exactly how the ID card is shaping up. Others in this thread have asked what’s the big deal? We already have plenty of IDs, who cares about another one? The huge difference with this scheme is the intention that this should be the ultimate all-purpose, universal ID. That means the ID that your bank or doctor wants to see is the same one that the ticket collector at the railway station wants to see, or the policeman at the roadside check, or your employer at the job interview. Do you trust or want them all to be sharing the same info on you? Because that’s what’s going to happen. As a single, all-purpose ID it introduces an obvious all-eggs-in-one-basket scenario. Once that ID is compromised, be it stolen or lost or cloned, that’s you shafted from all directions. Any criminal with their hands on it has total access to every aspect of your life and you effectively become a person with either no identity or someone who has a criminal identity. Either way you’re going to feel what it’s like to be an outcast non-person with no rights. And that’s even before we look at the abuses that become possible with an all-purpose database holding everyone’s ID. It quite simply is a government’s wet-dream to have that much data to hand that is so critical to everything everyone does. I certainly don’t trust it to not be abused, no matter what anyone says now. I would be gob-smacked if it wasn’t, either with official governmental approval or without. The ID card scheme does _nothing_ for the benefit of UK citizens and everything for the benefit of government and criminals. The government must know all this, but like it that way. It’s a win-win situation as far as they’re concerned. They get to put a label on everyone to keep tabs on them _and_ get them jittery about losing their now vital ID card. A climate of fear makes it easier to justify further restrictions and controls in the future. Just how far do you think they’ll push it before people will realise the whole idea was a con from the very start? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-cards-if-we-keep-inventing-new-excuses-one-will-eventually-work/305582/56 "2005-07-22T12:03:36Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > As a single, all-purpose ID it introduces an obvious all-eggs-in-one-basket scenario. Once that ID is compromised, be it stolen or lost or cloned, that’s you shafted from all directions. Any criminal with their hands on it has total access to every aspect of your life and you effectively become a person with either no identity or someone who has a criminal identity. Either way you’re going to feel what it’s like to be an outcast non-person with no rights. Certainly that’s a huge flaw in the scheme, but in practical terms, I think it is more likely to play out so that _nobody_ considers the ID card to be a definitive form of ID; rather than accepting just the card, border controls will want the card and a passport; banks will want the card and another form of ID; probably even government/official bodies will still resort to asking for ID card plus something else like birth certificate. Criminal misuse of the ID card system won’t destroy us all, it will simply render the ID card system worthless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-cards-if-we-keep-inventing-new-excuses-one-will-eventually-work/305582.md?page=2)