# I'd like to hear a Republican's retort to Beto's "take a knee" speech. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 23, 2018, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106 "2018-08-23T12:29:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/61 "2018-08-24T01:20:33Z")
I’m gonna write an alternative history novel where it became traditional to kneel for the national anthem and some rogue NFL players start standing in protest of something or other. It’s gonna blow people’s minds. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/62 "2018-08-24T01:29:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, shit! I thought we _hid_ the Counselor’s zircon-encrusted semantic parsing tweezers! You’re being unfairly kind to Bricker. He’s either disingenuous or stupid, with this mix of incredibly simplistic dichotomies and nonsensical positions. To the incredibly simplistic dichotomy: Reasonable positions can be suboptimal or in error. But Bricker clings to the pretense that a polite and politic line of a politician that “reasonable persons can disagree” is an excuse to pretend that all disagreements on all issues are “reasonable” and nothing is arguable. This is childish. To the nonsensical position: _Of course_ protests go where the eyeballs and eardrums will register them. This invalidates nothing. If Bricker argues like this a courtroom, he must assume that the typical response is to think him a bargain-basement sophist, a non-persuadable simpleton, or a smug adolescent in a man’s body; and to bite one’s tongue rather than to call him names and be held in contempt of court. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/63 "2018-08-24T01:55:16Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > You’re being unfairly kind to Bricker. He’s either disingenuous or stupid, with this mix of incredibly simplistic dichotomies and nonsensical positions. > > To the incredibly simplistic dichotomy: Reasonable positions can be suboptimal or in error. But Bricker clings to the pretense that a polite and politic line of a politician that “reasonable persons can disagree” is an excuse to pretend that all disagreements on all issues are “reasonable” and nothing is arguable. This is childish. That’s not remotely what I did. I accepted the concession that reasonable persons may disagree on this issue; in no way does that imply that all disagreements on all issues are “reasonable” and nothing is arguable. > [@](#): > > To the nonsensical position: _Of course_ protests go where the eyeballs and eardrums will register them. This invalidates nothing. Agreed. But since I didn’t claim it invalidated anything, this is hardly a difficult agreement to wrest from me. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/64 "2018-08-24T01:57:12Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > [off-topic] I’d never heard of Beto but clicked the link. Bravo! Maybe there’s still hope for this forlorn country. > > [on-topic] I inadvertently learned what Ted Cruz’s complaint is against Congressman O’Rourke: > > When the video finished, YouTube started up another video automatically. Ted Cruz is running ads mocking the name “Beto” — O’Rourke’s birth certificate says “Robert.” CNN’s Chris Cuomo accuses Cruz of doing the opposite — his name is “Rafael” but he goes by “Ted.” Cruz’s defense? _“Have a sense of humor.”_ :smack: The really profoundly stupid part of it is that “Beto” is a Spanish nickname for “Roberto”, and since Beto grew up in El Paso, that was his childhood nickname. So he comes by it honestly, as opposed to somehow extracting “Ted” out of Rafael and then griping about some other guy’s honest nickname. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/65 "2018-08-24T02:12:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Agreed. But since I didn’t claim it invalidated anything, this is hardly a difficult agreement to wrest from me. I could articulate a nexus between you bringing up camera time and the invalidity of the protest. I doubt you could articulate a nexus between bringing up the cameras and any other point. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/66 "2018-08-24T02:16:52Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > You’re being unfairly kind to Bricker. He’s either disingenuous or stupid, with this mix of incredibly simplistic dichotomies and nonsensical positions. That one will earn you a warning, foolsguinea. You should know better than to insult another poster. Please don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/67 "2018-08-24T02:38:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > To believe that after being told otherwise is deliberate ignorance and totally unreasonable, and to push that belief after being told otherwise is totally dishonest. Paraphrasing another poster, then accusing that poster of being dishonest based on one’s paraphrase breaks the prohibition against accusations of lying. That will pick up a Warning. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/68 "2018-08-24T02:55:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The reasonable criticism here relates to the fact that this moment – the playing of the National Anthem – is done for symbolic reasons of its own. Choosing this moment for its high viewership and ease of access (the players are visible and the cameras are on them) makes sense for just the reason you say: cameras and attention are necessary for the desired exposure. > > But because the event itself carries other symbolism, it invites the inference that the protest is directed AT that other symbolism. The symbolism that it conveys to me is that the government/military was willing to pay the NFL to change decades long protocol and send their players out before games to rile up something that they could declare as “patriotism.” And now some people are upset that the created image of patriotism has been co-opted by a different group with less money. _::: shrug :::_ (I am also at a loss to understand where the “disrespect” claim for this monetary display of alleged patriotism originates. Genuflecting is a sign of respect. No one (of whom I am aware) has turned their back on the flag, dropped trow, and mooned it.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/69 "2018-08-24T03:28:35Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I could articulate a nexus between you bringing up camera time and the invalidity of the protest. I doubt you could articulate a nexus between bringing up the cameras and any other point. Then it would appear you missed the post in which I suggested the problem with choosing this moment because the cameras were present was the inference that the protest was tied to the patriotic expression of the anthem instead of the racial disparity in law enforcement. That doesn’t make the protest against racial disparity invalid; it merely weakens the clarity of the message. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/70 "2018-08-24T04:19:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But you did. Look at it again: [your post #35](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21164607&postcount=35) has my name in it, inside the quote box. I was not accusing you of anything-I was giving my own opinion on the subject of all those that promote the idea that they were being disrespectful to the flag despite being told otherwise by the protestors themselves. You already said that that you accepted what they were actually protesting, but that they were doing it in an effectual manner. My position is that the real problem are those that lie about what the protests are about, not the protestors themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/71 "2018-08-24T04:21:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Then it would appear you missed the post in which I suggested the problem with choosing this moment because the cameras were present was the inference that the protest was tied to the patriotic expression of the anthem instead of the racial disparity in law enforcement. That doesn’t make the protest against racial disparity invalid; it merely weakens the clarity of the message. How would taking a knee when there is no audience to see their action nor hear their message _strengthen_ that message? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/72 "2018-08-24T05:20:39Z")
I’m trying to imagine the headspace where a protest who harms no-one, inconveniences no-one, and which literally everyone can ignore with no further repercussions is somehow so important to be elevated to a national issue, or so disrespectful to get someone angry. I get how the _response_ to that protest becomes a national issue when the president decides to wade into the culture war, but really? This is something people care about? This is something people _worry_ about? Even if you’re missing literally all of the context of the civil rights movement, even if you have absolutely no idea what they’re celebrating, _in what universe is this worth bringing up to your local politician_? That headspace is a dark, empty, angry place and I want no part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/73 "2018-08-24T05:34:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How would taking a knee when there is no audience to see their action nor hear their message _strengthen_ that message? It wouldn’t, which suggests to me that taking a knee has flaws as an unambiguous method of conveying a protest. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/74 "2018-08-24T05:38:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It wouldn’t, which suggests to me that taking a knee has flaws as an unambiguous method of conveying a protest. And your alternate suggestion is…? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/75 "2018-08-24T05:39:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It wouldn’t, which suggests to me that taking a knee has flaws as an unambiguous method of conveying a protest. I’m protesting this terrible argument. You can’t tell, because I’m doing it alone, in my room, without telling anyone, but I’m definitely doing it! _This is how protests work, right?_ ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/76 "2018-08-24T05:43:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am also at a loss to understand where the “disrespect” claim for this monetary display of alleged patriotism originates. Simple: It’s a distraction, like arguing about where Obama was born or whether Clinton “rigged” the primaries. It’s using a word like a smoke bomb, or perhaps a flashbang, to make a lot of noise and flashing light to ensure nobody can focus on what’s actually being discussed here. It’s symptomatic of something I call Adult Syndrome: Being obsessed with status and deferential ritual. It’s playing the protocol game for blood. Everyone knows the protocol game, and it’s possible to play it honestly, and use it for good: You stand and are silent when a judge enters the courtroom, and that isn’t a problem because the same protocol ensures that the prosecution can’t talk over the defense, or brandish a large valise at a witness with exculpatory testimony. However, when the Adult Syndrome rears its ugly head, the deformed protocol game it engenders is one the other person can’t win: _Everything_ is disrespectful, and being disrespectful is immediately disqualifying. They are, after all, the Adult, and Adults must take children in hand to correct them when they’re disrespectful. The landscape goes from being a manicured garden where you must walk on the paths to being a minefield where mines spring up like wildflowers, spread on the slightest breeze. The end is quite simple: Always being right, and never having to come up with any cogent arguments. It’s a way to shout down opposing arguments while never looking like a hooting ape putting on a dominance display. I can’t say anyone at the SDMB qualifies, but it’s common enough in reality. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/77 "2018-08-24T05:43:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It wouldn’t, which suggests to me that taking a knee has flaws as an unambiguous method of conveying a protest. Does the fact that the right-wing press deliberately misrepresented what was being protested play a part in this? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/78 "2018-08-24T06:37:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Does the fact that the right-wing press deliberately misrepresented what was being protested play a part in this? Yes. A highly predictable part. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > And your alternate suggestion is…? Twitter. Facebook. Instagram. Videos of the quarterback joining a #BLM march. Publicity by the same methods non-NFL celebrities use to reasonably decent effect. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/79 "2018-08-24T06:47:45Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The symbolism that it conveys to me is that the government/military was willing to pay the NFL to change decades long protocol and send their players out before games to rile up something that they could declare as “patriotism.” And now some people are upset that the created image of patriotism has been co-opted by a different group with less money. > _::: shrug :::_ Sure. That too. > [@](#): > > (I am also at a loss to understand where the “disrespect” claim for this monetary display of alleged patriotism originates. Genuflecting is a sign of respect. No one (of whom I am aware) has turned their back on the flag, dropped trow, and mooned it.) It’s true that genuflecting is generally a sign of respect. But it’s equally clear that the protesters don’t intend to convey respect for the flag or the anthem. Their comments make that clear: they are kneeling to protest an issue, not to convey respect. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/80 "2018-08-24T06:49:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It wouldn’t, which suggests to me that taking a knee has flaws as an unambiguous method of conveying a protest. \*All \*forms of protest have flaws. Little in life is perfect. Was marching in the streets during the civil rights protests are perfect form of protest? No. One side saw it as protesting racism and one side saw it as uppity nigras who didn’t know their place. This is the exact same thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106.md?page=5)