# I'd like to hear a Republican's retort to Beto's "take a knee" speech. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 23, 2018, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106 "2018-08-23T12:29:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/81 "2018-08-24T07:17:15Z")
It was a good answer. I don’t have a problem with people exercising their rights. The NFL and viewers might not want to deal with a political spectacle on the job however. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/82 "2018-08-24T08:40:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > IANAR, but he starts out by saying “reasonable people can disagree on this issue”, so why would anyone need to say anything more than “I disagree”? It is, apparently, a reasonable thing to do. That _seems_ valid, superficially. ISTM, though, that taking that position implies an _a priori_ assumption that anyone who shows up to dispute the argument is a reasonable person (which strikes me as a dubious undertaking). Perhaps anyone who tries to undermine a position this way should be considered to have cast doubt upon his “reasonable person” status, pending the furnishing of some credentials (on the principle that an _actual_ reasonable person would bring an actual argument to back up his disagreement). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/83 "2018-08-24T08:51:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’d say, rather, that I believe they’re being cynical, because I don’t believe that they could articulate a close nexus between the National Anthem and police brutality. . . but they COULD articulate a close nexus between the National Anthem and TV network camera air time. You have something against articulating a close nexus between a protest of police brutality and TV network camera air time? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/84 "2018-08-24T08:58:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The reasonable criticism here relates to the fact that this moment – the playing of the National Anthem – is done for symbolic reasons of its own. Speaking of opportunities for cynical motivations to present themselves… ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/85 "2018-08-24T11:21:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s true that genuflecting is generally a sign of respect. But it’s equally clear that the protesters don’t intend to convey respect for the flag or the anthem. Their comments make that clear: they are kneeling to protest an issue, not to convey respect. Seems to me that you’re treating respect and protest as mutually exclusive. I do not believe that they are. The players are not protesting the flag or the anthem any more than Rosa Parks was protesting the bus- they’re simply saying “there is something dreadfully wrong here and we choose not to stand and salute as if everything was hunky-dory.” Right wingers and veterans do not own the anthem or the flag nor do they get to dictate how others behave during the anthem. If someone’s idea of freedom is to tell others how to behave, then that’s a pretty flawed view of freedom. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/86 "2018-08-24T11:27:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s true that genuflecting is generally a sign of respect. But it’s equally clear that the protesters don’t intend to convey respect for the flag or the anthem. Their comments make that clear: they are kneeling to protest an issue, not to convey respect. So it’s unambiguous when you want it to be, I see. Lol. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/87 "2018-08-24T11:41:21Z")
They stand to face the flag during the national anthem because a profitable deal was struck, and they quietly kneel and bow their heads to point out a major problem that needs to be addressed. Why should the latter be suppressed to support the former? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/88 "2018-08-24T11:44:54Z")
It’s a distress call. “Something is majorly wrong in this country and it needs to be addressed”. And interviews with players make this explicitly clear. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/89 "2018-08-24T12:04:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s true that genuflecting is generally a sign of respect. But it’s equally clear that the protesters don’t intend to convey respect for the flag or the anthem. Their comments make that clear: they are kneeling to protest an issue, not to convey respect. But that’s just it: if we just view the act of kneeling itself, it isn’t a sign of disrespect. And if we view it in the light of their comments, it’s meant as a protest of that specific issue instead of as disrespect for anything else. If they were giving the middle finger to the flag, or mooning it, or whatever, we could say “look, never mind their comments; that’s disrespect right there.” And if they were kneeling, but said they’re trying to convey disrespect for the flag by kneeling, we could say, “I don’t care how respectful it looks; listen to what they said.” But if it looks and sounds like it’s not disrespect — if it works without context, and it also works _with_ context — then where does the disrespect come in? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/90 "2018-08-24T12:31:39Z")
Maybe if it was phrased in a way Republicans would understand. Here, I’ll try. What they’re saying is Make The Flag Great Again. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/91 "2018-08-24T15:13:24Z")
[Here’s what Colin Kaepernick says](http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000691077/article/colin-kaepernick-explains-protest-of-national-anthem) about the protest: > [@](#): > > “ **I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color** ,” Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game. “To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder.” Emphasis added. Claims that this is not about disrespecting the country and is just a protest of a specific aspect are contradicted by this quote, at least in the case of Kaepernick himself. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/92 "2018-08-24T15:19:09Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [Here’s what Colin Kaepernick says](http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000691077/article/colin-kaepernick-explains-protest-of-national-anthem) about the protest: Emphasis added. > > Claims that this is not about disrespecting the country and is just a protest of a specific aspect are contradicted by this quote, at least in the case of Kaepernick himself. If I’m reading it right, that’s from when Kaepernick was _sitting_ during the anthem. Hasn’t he explained, since then, why he switched to kneeling? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/93 "2018-08-24T15:20:38Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [Here’s what Colin Kaepernick says](http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000691077/article/colin-kaepernick-explains-protest-of-national-anthem) about the protest: Emphasis added. > > Claims that this is not about disrespecting the country and is just a protest of a specific aspect are contradicted by this quote, at least in the case of Kaepernick himself. Saluting the flag and ignoring those problems is the greater affront. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/94 "2018-08-24T16:17:37Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So it’s unambiguous when you want it to be, I see. > > Lol. Wow. It’s ambiguous and not ambiguous too. If only there were a word to express that. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/95 "2018-08-24T16:32:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It wouldn’t, which suggests to me that taking a knee has flaws as an unambiguous method of conveying a protest. Would you care to elaborate on what an unambiguous method of protest might be? Especially since you say later that the misrepresentation of this protest by right wing media was highly predictable. Isn’t it the case that this misrepresentation would have happened regardless of their actions? It’s hard for me to imagine something more humble and respectful than silently kneeling. Yet, somehow, you think it has so many flaws that they should have predicted it would be turned against them. I’m reminded of a tweet I saw a while ago: White people: Black people should protest peacefully. Black people: [kneel silently] White people: Not like that! Is this just maybe a total bullshit standard that has nothing to do with their actions and everything to do with their cause and skin color? > [@Bricker](#): > > It’s true that genuflecting is generally a sign of respect. But it’s equally clear that the protesters don’t intend to convey respect for the flag or the anthem. Their comments make that clear: they are kneeling to protest an issue, not to convey respect. They are kneeling so that their protest is done in a respectful way. Do you think respect and protest are mutually exclusive? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/96 "2018-08-24T16:49:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. A highly predictable part. > > Twitter. Facebook. Instagram. Videos of the quarterback joining a #BLM march. Publicity by the same methods non-NFL celebrities use to reasonably decent effect. Twitter. Facebook. Instagram. Do you think this is actually doing the job…or are these methods put forth because they are so easy to disregard and/or avoid with a simple push of a button? edited to add: Aren’t these all “opt-in” for the people you are trying to convince? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/97 "2018-08-24T17:04:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think that the nexus between the National Anthem and the complaints related to the goals of BlackLivesMatter are tenuous at best, and the choice of the Anthem as the moment to kneel gives reasonable rise to the belief that the protest goes to the pillars of our national identity, as opposed to the more narrow grounds articulated by some defenders of the protests. Clearly the players are choosing the particular moment of the national anthem for a particular reason- by choosing it, they’re choosing both a visible moment- all cameras are usually on the team at some point, and a moment with a certain socio-political meaning- by kneeling, they’re essentially saying “I’m not on board with celebrating these values- they’re the values of the people who let us down.” As far as I can tell, it’s NOT about respect for the flag itself, or the things done in its name or that it was present for. The flag was present for a lot of things- the flag was flown on Mt. Suribachi, the flag was flown by Peary and Henson at or near the North Pole and flags were flown on the Moon by the Apollo astronauts. It’s not solely related to military sacrifice by any stretch of the imagination. It is a symbol of our nation and our history, and that’s about it. By not standing hand-on-heart, the players are essentially trying to draw attention to the fact that they, as black men, feel let down by the country with the way they are treated by society and the governments themselves. A lot of people out there don’t get it though, and that’s where the problem lies with the protests. These people assume that it’s meant as a direct disrespect to the flag and what it represents, and a belittling of those things. Usually I hear it more in the light of “Men fought and died for that flag; who are these prima-donnas to go disrespect it like that?” Which totally misses the point, but was entirely and completely predictable as well. Ultimately it was one guy who probably came up with the best protest he could come up with on short notice, and it took hold, and now people are expecting a really well reasoned and coherent discussion on why he did it and what it means, when I personally doubt it was nearly so premeditated as all that. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/98 "2018-08-24T22:58:11Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > [Four minutes of awesome.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGWmh-maevk) > > Great speech! Any Republicans on this board care to retort? 🙂 > Not looking to snark on anyone, I just really am currious what one’s retort to this would be. How many active NFL players protest outside of football? 0? 1? Where are those photos? The national anthem means something a little different to each of us. At least 50% of the people value it, so why tarnish it when the people in attendance are paying to see an event, not a protest. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/99 "2018-08-24T23:07:51Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > How many active NFL players protest outside of football? 0? 1? Where are those photos? > > The national anthem means something a little different to each of us. At least 50% of the people value it, so why tarnish it when the people in attendance are paying to see an event, not a protest. I was unaware that players had an obligation to protest at other places. Let’s see, you can protest at a stadium with television audience in the millions, or you can protest at a grocery store and maybe a dozen people see you. Perhaps if you would be kind enough to inform them what other locales would be effective uses of their time, they might work some in. So, where else exactly should they be protesting? Personally, I think 90% of the backlash is based on race. If it was started by a white guy, it wouldn’t be news. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/100 "2018-08-24T23:08:43Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I’m reminded of a tweet I saw a while ago: Why didn’t it say: - White people: Black people should protest peacefully. Black people: [kneel silently during National Anthem] White people: Not like that! A protest during the National Anthem is loaded with mixed messages.\* > [@](#): > > Is this just maybe a total bullshit standard that has nothing to do with their actions and everything to do with their cause and skin color? No. > [@](#): > > They are kneeling so that their protest is done in a respectful way. Do you think respect and protest are mutually exclusive? No. > [@](#): > > Would you care to elaborate on what an unambiguous method of protest might be? Asked and answered above. Facebook. Instagram. Twitter. Marches with #BLM banners. Fund-raising events for legal defense funds for profiled African-American defendants, and for funding civil suits by injured persons, or by the families of those deceased. Appearances on talk shows. Producing a documentary. Endowing a non-profit to coordinate awareness on a permanent basis. Lobbying state legislatures to revise laws to reduce police immunity in the aftermath of injury or death to profiled individuals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106.md?page=6)