# I'd like to hear a Republican's retort to Beto's "take a knee" speech. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 23, 2018, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106 "2018-08-23T12:29:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/101 "2018-08-24T23:40:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why didn’t it say: > > - > > White people: Black people should protest peacefully. > Black people: [kneel silently during National Anthem] > White people: Not like that! A protest during the National Anthem is loaded with mixed messages.\* > > No. > > No. > > Asked and answered above. Facebook. Instagram. Twitter. Marches with #BLM banners. Fund-raising events for legal defense funds for profiled African-American defendants, and for funding civil suits by injured persons, or by the families of those deceased. Appearances on talk shows. Producing a documentary. Endowing a non-profit to coordinate awareness on a permanent basis. Lobbying state legislatures to revise laws to reduce police immunity in the aftermath of injury or death to profiled individuals. That is a social media strategy but nothing to do with protest. You understand the whole idea of protest is that if someone else is telling you how to do it, and you do that, it isn’t a protest. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/102 "2018-08-25T00:24:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. A highly predictable part. > > Twitter. Facebook. Instagram. Videos of the quarterback joining a #BLM march. Publicity by the same methods non-NFL celebrities use to reasonably decent effect. All of which is good. And I guess you make a reasonable point. But the demonization of protesters implies an antipathy toward them as public persons, if not toward their cause. A black man marching in a part of the city one doesn’t go to is not a problem. A black man having opinions on one’s television screen, apparently, is. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/103 "2018-08-25T00:25:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Then it would appear you missed the post in which I suggested the problem with choosing this moment because the cameras were present was the inference that the protest was tied to the patriotic expression of the anthem instead of the racial disparity in law enforcement. That doesn’t make the protest against racial disparity invalid; it merely weakens the clarity of the message. I know they’re not protesting the anthem. But we conservatives have been incredibly successful in misrepresenting the reality of what’s going on and in making people think there’s something pernicious happening where there really isn’t. And since people are upset, well, obviously we need to do something to assuage the fears and confusion that we created, right? On a slightly different note, I know that there’s no real voter fraud going on. But we conservatives have been incredibly successful in misrepresenting the reality of what’s going on and in making people think there’s something pernicious happening where really there isn’t. And since people are upset, well, obviously we need to do something to assuage the fears and confusion that we created, right? I’m starting to see a pattern here… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/104 "2018-08-25T02:58:02Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Would you care to elaborate on what an unambiguous method of protest might be? > [@Bricker](#): > > Asked and answered above. Facebook. Instagram. Twitter. Marches with #BLM banners. Fund-raising events for legal defense funds for profiled African-American defendants, and for funding civil suits by injured persons, or by the families of those deceased. Appearances on talk shows. Producing a documentary. Endowing a non-profit to coordinate awareness on a permanent basis. Lobbying state legislatures to revise laws to reduce police immunity in the aftermath of injury or death to profiled individuals. > [@drad\_dog](#): > > You understand the whole idea of protest is that if someone else is telling you how to do it, and you do that, it isn’t a protest. You understand that there’s really no way to answer **iamthewalrus** ’ question without running afoul of that rule you just announced? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/105 "2018-08-25T06:42:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Twitter. Facebook. Instagram. > Do you think this is actually doing the job…or are these methods put forth because they are so easy to disregard and/or avoid with a simple push of a button? > edited to add: Aren’t these all “opt-in” for the people you are trying to convince? To be fair, tuning in to a football game is also “opt-in.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/106 "2018-08-25T12:10:22Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > To be fair, tuning in to a football game is also “opt-in.” It also reaches a broader audience than those who already subscribe to that football player’s Twitter account and have already gotten the message. Twitter, Facebook and Instagram are great ways to preach to the choir, but not so great for getting a message out to the masses. edited to add: If you say that Instagram, Twitter and Facebook is the route they should have taken, tell me if you are already subscribed to their accounts and would have heard the message that way. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/107 "2018-08-25T15:43:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I second this response. If the OP endorses O’Rourke’s sentiments, as [te](https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/750/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her/) appears to, then te presumably accedes to the notion that reasonable people may disagree. > > I do disagree. > > I think that the nexus between the National Anthem and the complaints related to the goals of BlackLivesMatter are tenuous at best, and the choice of the Anthem as the moment to kneel gives reasonable rise to the belief that the protest goes to the pillars of our national identity, as opposed to the more narrow grounds articulated by some defenders of the protests. > > But, of course, since I also endorse the proposition that reasonable people may disagree, I don’t suggest my view is indisputably correct either. Our national identity has belligerence and oppression of minorities as one of its pillars, and it always has. I see no reason why that shouldn’t be protested. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/108 "2018-08-25T16:21:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You understand that there’s really no way to answer **iamthewalrus** ’ question without running afoul of that rule you just announced? I don’t see that at all. You never know unless you try. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/109 "2018-08-25T18:52:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Asked and answered above. Facebook. Instagram. Twitter. Marches with #BLM banners. Fund-raising events for legal defense funds for profiled African-American defendants, and for funding civil suits by injured persons, or by the families of those deceased. Appearances on talk shows. Producing a documentary. Endowing a non-profit to coordinate awareness on a permanent basis. Lobbying state legislatures to revise laws to reduce police immunity in the aftermath of injury or death to profiled individuals. Except that all of those approaches will yield exactly the same result: some defect in the presentation will be found that will justify ignoring the message. Don’t do it at a sporting event. Don’t do it during rush hour. Don’t use that phrasing. Don’t associate with that person. When every attempt to address a problem is dismissed because of a problem with its form, it becomes clear that the actual objection is to its content. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/110 "2018-08-25T21:54:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You understand that there’s really no way to answer **iamthewalrus** ’ question without running afoul of that rule you just announced? I wouldn’t agree with that statement (although the poster you responded to might) Listing methods of protest that would be unobjectionable is not the same as forcing someone to protest in a certain manner. There are obviously methods of protests that are more or less objectionable. Civil disobedience is certainly better than, say, lobbing malatov cocktails. The problem with that line is that silently kneeling is so passive and non-disruptive that it boggles the mind that it’s listed as objectionable. And, of course, my question was primarily rhetorical, since I don’t think that there really is such a method. That is, I’m sure that there are protests that you, **Bricker** think are reasonable. But there is no protest method that won’t get plenty of people to complain (disingenuously) that sure, those guys have the _right_ to protest, but it’s so uncouth of them to do it _this way_, that they deserve the scorn that we’re heaping on them. I’ve seen plenty of people get upset over peaceful marches in the street because it fouls up traffic. And I’ve seen plenty of bullshit about how actors and professional athletes should shut up about politics. And those complaints, just like the complaints about people kneeling while the national anthem is playing, have nothing to do with the _method of protest_, and everything to do with the protestors and the cause. What do you think of lunch counter sit-ins as a method of protest? Those were certainly far more disruptive and disrespectful than quietly kneeling. They involved breaking the law, failing to follow the direction of police officers, keeping other people who might reasonably want to eat lunch there. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/111 "2018-08-25T22:56:31Z")
One that often comes to mind for me is the response Eartha Kitt got for speaking her mind, _at the White House,_ about drafting folks to get shot maimed in Vietnam: lots of people said, oh, no, we don’t want celebrities going to the White House and saying things like that; it’s unacceptable, heaven forbid, perish the thought. I disagree, of course; but, taking it seriously for the sake of argument, I’ve of course then seen celebrities who aren’t on the same page as the President come in for lots of criticism upon getting invited to the White House and _just not going_. At which point . . . look, if something _and nothing_ are both off-limits? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/112 "2018-08-26T02:53:30Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I’ve seen plenty of people get upset over peaceful marches in the street because it fouls up traffic. I agree with (and, indeed, have already said) the thrust of your point here, but I want to point out something: If being late for your job puts you at risk of losing it, and if you can’t get a job quickly and are living paycheck-to-paycheck as it is, you _just might_ see someone slowing down your morning (or, if you work nights, evening) commute as being worthy of your ire. Now, add to that the fact there are plenty of emergency responders who drive normal cars and don’t get lights and sirens and you can see _real, specific_ complaints against that mode of protest which don’t boil down to some illusory and dishonest claim of “disrespect”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/113 "2018-08-26T03:49:24Z")
There is a fairly consistent distinction to be made between, say, Martin Luther King’s actions, or Rosa Park’s actions, on the one hand, and the NFL player actions on the other. There’s a consistent way to approve of the former while disapproving of the latter. I don’t know what others call it, but I think of it as the Victor’s Distinction. That is, you can approve of Parks and King, **because they won**. Their civil rights struggle is safely in the past, and society has agreed that what they did was great and that they were heroes. Today if you blame Parks or King, you experience some serious social pushback. So if you adopt the Victor’s Distinction, you approve of what they did. Colin Kaepernick? He hasn’t won yet. Black Lives Matter? The people who take down statues? They’re in the middle of their struggle, and you can condemn them without universal social pushback. So the Victor’s Distinction doesn’t require you to approve of them: you can criticize them all you like. It’s convenient and consistent. Fifty years ago, those who adopted the Victor’s Distinction could approve of Harriet Tubman while disapproving of MLK, pointing out how he stirred up trouble in otherwise peaceful communities. A hundred and fifty years ago, those who adopted the Victor’s Distinction could approve of the Boston Tea Party while condemning Harriet Tubman for violating property rights–I mean, sure, maybe slavery should end some day, but stealing people from plantations wasn’t helping the cause at all. And in 1773 I’m certain there were people who approved of Pilgrims who left the land they were bonded to, but wagged their fingers at the hooligans throwing perfectly good tea into the Boston Harbor. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/114 "2018-08-26T15:41:27Z")
Lest we all forget, these players’ peaceful, free action of political messaging comes in the midst of a compelled action of political messaging which celebrates violence. If players kneeling for the Anthem isn’t acceptable, then neither is playing the Anthem in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/115 "2018-08-26T17:00:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There is a fairly consistent distinction to be made between, say, Martin Luther King’s actions, or Rosa Park’s actions, on the one hand, and the NFL player actions on the other. There’s a consistent way to approve of the former while disapproving of the latter. > > I don’t know what others call it, but I think of it as the Victor’s Distinction. > > That is, you can approve of Parks and King, **because they won**. Their civil rights struggle is safely in the past, and society has agreed that what they did was great and that they were heroes. This is closely related to Harington’s Epigram: _Treason doth never prosper? What’s the Reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it Treason._ (Sir John Harington was one of Queen Elizabeth’s godsons, and inventor of the flush toilet. [trivia:] [the slang ‘John’ for ‘bathroom’ may derive from Harington’s name.](http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/08/why-the-toilet-is-sometimes-called-a-john/)) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/116 "2018-08-26T17:58:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It’s convenient and consistent. Fifty years ago, those who adopted the Victor’s Distinction could approve of Harriet Tubman while disapproving of MLK, pointing out how he stirred up trouble in otherwise peaceful communities. It is endlessly surprising to me how many people are blissfully unaware than King was one of the most hated Americans in America, maybe THE most hated, especially by conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/117 "2018-08-26T21:35:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There is a fairly consistent distinction to be made between, say, Martin Luther King’s actions, or Rosa Park’s actions, on the one hand, and the NFL player actions on the other. There’s a consistent way to approve of the former while disapproving of the latter. > > I don’t know what others call it, but I think of it as the Victor’s Distinction. > > That is, you can approve of Parks and King, **because they won**. Their civil rights struggle is safely in the past, and society has agreed that what they did was great and that they were heroes. Today if you blame Parks or King, you experience some serious social pushback. So if you adopt the Victor’s Distinction, you approve of what they did. > > Colin Kaepernick? He hasn’t won yet. Black Lives Matter? The people who take down statues? They’re in the middle of their struggle, and you can condemn them without universal social pushback. So the Victor’s Distinction doesn’t require you to approve of them: you can criticize them all you like. > > It’s convenient and consistent. Fifty years ago, those who adopted the Victor’s Distinction could approve of Harriet Tubman while disapproving of MLK, pointing out how he stirred up trouble in otherwise peaceful communities. A hundred and fifty years ago, those who adopted the Victor’s Distinction could approve of the Boston Tea Party while condemning Harriet Tubman for violating property rights–I mean, sure, maybe slavery should end some day, but stealing people from plantations wasn’t helping the cause at all. And in 1773 I’m certain there were people who approved of Pilgrims who left the land they were bonded to, but wagged their fingers at the hooligans throwing perfectly good tea into the Boston Harbor. Fantastic post. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/118 "2018-08-26T22:19:16Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > This is closely related to Harington’s Epigram: > _Treason doth never prosper? What’s the Reason? > For if it prosper, none dare call it Treason._ Very closely related–good call. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/119 "2018-08-26T22:23:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There is a fairly consistent distinction to be made between, say, Martin Luther King’s actions, or Rosa Park’s actions, on the one hand, and the NFL player actions on the other. There’s a consistent way to approve of the former while disapproving of the latter. > > I don’t know what others call it, but I think of it as the Victor’s Distinction. > > That is, you can approve of Parks and King, **because they won**. Their civil rights struggle is safely in the past, and society has agreed that what they did was great and that they were heroes. Today if you blame Parks or King, you experience some serious social pushback. So if you adopt the Victor’s Distinction, you approve of what they did. > > Colin Kaepernick? He hasn’t won yet. Black Lives Matter? The people who take down statues? They’re in the middle of their struggle, and you can condemn them without universal social pushback. So the Victor’s Distinction doesn’t require you to approve of them: you can criticize them all you like. > > It’s convenient and consistent. Fifty years ago, those who adopted the Victor’s Distinction could approve of Harriet Tubman while disapproving of MLK, pointing out how he stirred up trouble in otherwise peaceful communities. A hundred and fifty years ago, those who adopted the Victor’s Distinction could approve of the Boston Tea Party while condemning Harriet Tubman for violating property rights–I mean, sure, maybe slavery should end some day, but stealing people from plantations wasn’t helping the cause at all. And in 1773 I’m certain there were people who approved of Pilgrims who left the land they were bonded to, but wagged their fingers at the hooligans throwing perfectly good tea into the Boston Harbor. One exception: “The North” were winners but nobody ever wanted to say this thing is really over. It’s still not. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106/120 "2018-08-26T22:25:42Z")
Can’t quote Airman Doors, USAF: Who said: “Our national identity has belligerence and oppression of minorities as one of its pillars, and it always has. I see no reason why that shouldn’t be protested.” Thank you for posting this, it is the truth. No reason why, especially if the protest is non violent and nobody is hurt. “But mah football game! But mah anthem!” Give me a fucking break. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-like-to-hear-a-republicans-retort-to-betos-take-a-knee-speech/820106.md?page=7)