There is one of these (or something close) called “The Waterfront” in Pittsburgh, and I have to say that I like it.
I was dating a woman who lived near there and it seemed a much nicer place to go than a regular mall. Even with weather, (which not being made of sugar, I really don’t mind, and I like walking) I liked walking the “fake streets” between the stores more than the hallways of a mall.
Reflecting a little further on those town centers, I can see the appeal in that some of them are built in suburbs that never had a downtown and the people that live nearby are far enough away that going to downtown isn’t going to happen. DudleyGarrett mentions the Reston Town Center in his post. From what I recall off the top of my head, Reston is about an hour or so outside of DC proper. Thats far enough away that if you live there or in Herndon, you probably aren’t going to want to drive in to DC for dinner and a movie. Also, you might be able to find parking within a more reasonable distance than you would in the city.
One thing about building something like this versus rehabbing old buildings is that it is probably cheaper to tear everything down and start new versus trying to fix buildings that haven’t been used for over twenty years and need gutting anyway.
[QUOTE=whole bean]
I work in one of the premier example of this . It was actually a nice replacement for the hazardous waste site it was built on (don’t worry, it’s been contained, they tell us, but I wouldn’t eat a tomato grown here). I think there is a certain cheese factor, but at the same time, I think folk like you long for an organic sincerety that never existed. Someone with the same sentiment probably decried the development of Rockwellian main street commercial areas and the allowance of horse-less carriages on the city streets.
[/QUOTE]
I liked Atlantic Station when my wife and I stayed there back in February. It also seemed to be a magnet for moneyed (sp?) African-Americans.
VCO… did you see any… yuppies? :eek:
Glad to see this thread come up. Interestingly, my ancestral hometown of Johnstown, PA had one of these developments (the original Westmont shopping center) decades before the current trend of insta-downtowns sprang up.
I’m definitely divided over these things. The first, and so far only, one of the new type I’ve seen is Market Street, in The Woodlands, TX, which started up about two years ago. I sort of figured there must be others. I get the OP’s complaint, but I can’t totally condemn what the developers have accomplished: something resembling a downtown in a place where there formerly was none, actually a pretty good caricature of 1920s-'30s urban architecture, and for me a far more attractive and pleasant walking and shopping environment (IMO) than yer typical enclosed mall or strip center.
Now, most of the shops in the joint are national chains hawking upscale merchandise that leaves me cold, but there are a Borders and a Smith and Hawken more or less next to each other at one end, and a pretty good movie theatre, so I spend my share of time and money there.
Admittedly, Market Street looks even more artificial than the town set of the Back to the Future movies, but it seems reasonably well-built and has numerous interesting architectural details that I think will hold up well over time. I will admit to being a bit amused by the developer spending lavish amounts to construct this Potemkin village, when only about ten miles north there is the moribund downtown of Conroe, which has practically the same layout, overall size and architectural style as Market Street, and actually does date from the '20s-30s, yet slumbers away ignored. There is, of course, a larger and more affluent population to snare at the Woodlands location.
It will be most interesting to see what happens with environments like Market Street about 20-25 years down the road. Will they abandon it to private owners, continue the increasingly heavy maintenance as the buildings age, or just tear the whole thing down and start over? The Westmont center I mentioned at the beginning of my post may be a model: limited road access has more or less pinched it off, and while the buildings have not deteriorated into slums, there are no major shops other than a pharmacy and Dollar store left in it, and one could roll a bowling ball down the middle of the street without hitting anything. That could be Market Street’s fate a few decades on, and would that really be desirable?
But… Borders and Smith and Hawken’s are also national chains hawking upscale goods. 
[QUOTE=BMalion]
elmwood, how do you like Crocker Park? I kind of like it, I wouldn’t want to raise kids there, but I can see the charm.
[/QUOTE]
Well, being an East Sider, I’m more familiar with Legacy Village; it’s just about a mile from my house. I do think Crocker Park is much nicer, though; it’s mixed use with residential, there’s a wider range of tenants, the taller buildings frame the internal streets better, and multi-level parking keeps the site compact. The architecture seems a bit “fakey”, for example design elements of one facade section often overlap another; something that’s impossible with individual buildings on real urban Main Streets. Still, it’s far better than a typical strip plaza or power center.
I’ve got a lot of photos; go here, and search for “crocker park”.
There’s a few things that get me about these things. . .
For one, I don’t think that they’re “what people want”. I just think that they’re what’s built, and then skillfully marketed to people. The problem is that (what I consider to be) good urban/rural small local business development have neither the political clout nor the capital to compete. They’re mainly disconnected from each other, and don’t have the funds of hundreds of other branches to compete. Sure, Home Depot isn’t a monopoly, but it’s interests are aligned exactly with those of its direct competitors. For all practical purposes, it is.
Doesn’t anyone think an authentic Chinese restaurant, say, might want to move into the Reston town center? But what happens when that thing gets planned? The “Yummy Foods” corporation – which might own P.F. Changs, T.G.I. Friday’s, and I.P. Freely’s – in alliance with the “Small City Development Group” (names sort of made up) have entered into a partnership, bought the land, and are setting up shop. What chance do you think that “Trunk’s Eats” has of being established near a population center under this paradigm? What kind of hassles do you think I’d have with a city board if I tried to buy land and build near one of these places. . .with the taxes they bring in, the deals they’ve entered into.
Near me, there is a street where the local businesses have banded together to keep out businesses like Starbucks and Barnes & Nobles. Of course they’re coffee shop owners, and bookstore owners and yet they’ve been – Christ All-fucking-mighty – called out for being anti-competitive. I’d like to see one of them try to get into a pre-fab “town center”.
But, fuck it. It’s easy to avoid. I can weep for it from afar. But, I really wonder if in the future people are going to think that their little generic cathedral of consumption is going to be worth defending, maintaining. What’s going to be left to love about being in the US, or your part of it?
[QUOTE=JohnT]
But… Borders and Smith and Hawken’s are also national chains hawking upscale goods.
[/QUOTE]
Hey, I’m a hypocrite, I admit it; but their upscale goods don’t leave me cold. Well, I can’t afford about 80% of what’s in S & H, but they don’t charge to look, and the people there are so genuinely nice it freaks me out a little bit.
[QUOTE=JohnT]
But… Borders and Smith and Hawken’s are also national chains hawking upscale goods.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but they’re cool chains.
I hear it all the time; friends rant about chains taking over the landscape, but there are certain chains that always get a pass; Target, Whole Foods, Trader Joe’s, Chipotle, Ikea, Crate and Barrel, World Market, Costco, and Borders.
[QUOTE=Trunk]
There’s a few things that get me about these things. . .
For one, I don’t think that they’re “what people want”. I just think that they’re what’s built, and then skillfully marketed to people. The problem is that (what I consider to be) good urban/rural small local business development have neither the political clout nor the capital to compete. They’re mainly disconnected from each other, and don’t have the funds of hundreds of other branches to compete. Sure, Home Depot isn’t a monopoly, but it’s interests are aligned exactly with those of its direct competitors. For all practical purposes, it is.
Doesn’t anyone think an authentic Chinese restaurant, say, might want to move into the Reston town center? But what happens when that thing gets planned? The “Yummy Foods” corporation – which might own P.F. Changs, T.G.I. Friday’s, and I.P. Freely’s – in alliance with the “Small City Development Group” (names sort of made up) have entered into a partnership, bought the land, and are setting up shop. What chance do you think that “Trunk’s Eats” has of being established near a population center under this paradigm? What kind of hassles do you think I’d have with a city board if I tried to buy land and build near one of these places. . .with the taxes they bring in, the deals they’ve entered into.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t know about these centers in particular, but when my old home town did a similar revamp of the existing downtown, it was written into some important town paperwork that X% of the buildings could be occupied by only local owned businesses for Y number (big number, but I forget what exactly) of years. There’s some sliding scale rent arrangement to enable Mom ‘n’ Pop to afford the store next to Fake Macy’s.
Don’t worry. Soon enough the chain stores will fail, the place will turn to a ghost town, and with the magic that only a city in it’s natural state could conjure up, the place will be filled with ethnic restaurants and local stores. Well, either that or it will stay a ghost town.
I think the thing that makes these developments so repulsive is that they admit to the things our cities once had and that we now long for- public space, walkability, local ownership. a sense of place, variety, spontanaity, a public life. But they don’t really offer that. Generally, you gotta drive your cars to these places and everything is heavily regulated (try, say, shooting a student video in one, or holding a protest, or being a street musician).
It’s like if you had a dead friend, and you were given a life sized doll that looked just like him, but without the soul. It’d be outright depressing. Well, our cities are dead, and now we are being offered this. What can this do? Provide a poke in the ribs to our nostalgia while slightly delaying the real work that needs to be done in making our cities liveable once more?
And, well, goddammit I don’t want to live in Disneyland. And it makes me sad that my fellow citizens, who I feel free to look down on at this moment, do. Maybe I’m elitist. If thinking one thing is better than another thing, than I am. But before you squak, look who weighs 300 pounds and on prozac. Our urban planning is killing us, and we gotta do something about it soon.
I enjoy our soulless suburban sprawl. I can concentrate on developing the inner me without distractions, plus raise tomahtoes.
And I like the sort of combo town center/mall complex about 5 miles away. It has the best and worst of both shopping worlds, plus better people-watching opportunities.
Anytime I hear folks wax nostalgic for old-fashioned downtowns with local shops instead of soulless chains, I think of the small college town I spent a few years in during the '80s. The local store ambience included being treated with suspicion and followed around by the owners/employees (students were seen as equivalent to potential shoplifters). And it’s a hell of a lot easier to get refunds and exchanges at the soulless chain outlets.
[QUOTE=Jackmannii]
I enjoy our soulless suburban sprawl. I can concentrate on developing the inner me without distractions, plus raise tomahtoes.
And I like the sort of combo town center/mall complex about 5 miles away. It has the best and worst of both shopping worlds, plus better people-watching opportunities.
Anytime I hear folks wax nostalgic for old-fashioned downtowns with local shops instead of soulless chains, I think of the small college town I spent a few years in during the '80s. The local store ambience included being treated with suspicion and followed around by the owners/employees (students were seen as equivalent to potential shoplifters). And it’s a hell of a lot easier to get refunds and exchanges at the soulless chain outlets.
[/QUOTE]
Well, I don’t know where you went to college, but little “college towns” actually seem to me to be some of the last places where cool coffee shops, and bookstores still thrive.
“easy to get a refund” doesn’t begin to make up for it.
But, oddly. . .there’s kind of a burgeoning college town near Hopkins. However, its development seems to be rolling along hand in hand with a Barnes & Nobles (or Border’s. I really don’t know), and a couple shitty-ass chain eateries. But, the thing is. . .I’m sure that B&N never thought about building there, until it got the word from Condos 'R Us that they were building there.
Think a local place might have liked that retail space?
Think they had a snowball’s chance in hell at it?
They call that “Synergy”. Easy to get a refund.
[QUOTE=asterion]
In Albuquerque, on a lot that had been vacant for longer than I had been alive and living there,
[/QUOTE]
Borders? If that’s the place, asterion neglected to mention that it’s within a stones throw (OK, you’d maybe need a catapult) of both of Albuquerque’s pre-existing indoor malls.
[QUOTE=even sven]
And, well, goddammit I don’t want to live in Disneyland. And it makes me sad that my fellow citizens, who I feel free to look down on at this moment, do.
[/quote]
Well, so long as your condescension makes you sad, carry on, right?
“Maybe”?
It’s not having a preference that makes you elitist; it’s looking down on those who don’t share it that makes you elitist.
Well, I know I don’t. But for those in our population that do, it must be that they are shopping at Target instead of Jenny’s Jeans ‘n’ Things.
:rolleyes:
I don’t think these developments are the acme of urban planning, but they are IMO better than what has come before which – contrary to the rosy nostalgia of some – was NOT the 1950s downtowns of Pleasantville and Hidden Valley, but rather the 1970s – 90s strip-malls, garage dominated mega 'burbs, and car-driven (ha!) culture. So to say that they are “killing us” is beyond ridiculous.
i wonder what they’ll be like in 20 or 30 years. I remember seeing the decline of downtown Akron during the 70’s, despite some valient efforts of individual business owners. maybe a more unified business community such as these can weather the storms of society change and stay viable.
[QUOTE=Kevbo]
Borders? If that’s the place, asterion neglected to mention that it’s within a stones throw (OK, you’d maybe need a catapult) of both of Albuquerque’s pre-existing indoor malls.
[/QUOTE]
That’s it, the northeast corner of Louisiana and Indian School. And Winrock is renovating and is going to become an outdoor mall, which is a stupid idea. As I said earlier, it’s too hot in the summer, too cold in the winter, and too windy the rest of the year. I don’t mind that they developed that corner–better than sprawling onto the West Mesa or into Rio Rancho–but I hate the way they developed it. Of course the traffic on that part of Louisiana is now even worse than it used to be.
[QUOTE=BMalion]
i wonder what they’ll be like in 20 or 30 years. I remember seeing the decline of downtown Akron during the 70’s, despite some valient efforts of individual business owners. maybe a more unified business community such as these can weather the storms of society change and stay viable.
[/QUOTE]
By that time they’ll be known as “Historic Olde Towne Centre” and a lot of people are going to be very upset when the city wants to bulldoze their quaint and authentic (albeit a little run down) district to build a blernsball stadium.
I’ll offer another Chicago-area planned community - Mill Creek in Geneva, west of the city. I’ve played golf there, and the course is surrounded by little “communities” with “main streets” and even a school. The whole thing strikes me as a tad “Stepfordish” for my tastes. But I also see its merits over much of “traditional” suburban sprawl. I think it is “a good thing” to encourage living situations where folks are not dependant on their cars for every basic need, and where neighborhood structures encourage a sense of “community.”
Personally, I think I’d be happiest living in or near a smallish college town. And when possible I tend to prefer the “authentic” over the imitation.
[QUOTE=Trunk]
There’s a few things that get me about these things. . .
For one, I don’t think that they’re “what people want”. I just think that they’re what’s built, and then skillfully marketed to people. The problem is that (what I consider to be) good urban/rural small local business development have neither the political clout nor the capital to compete. They’re mainly disconnected from each other, and don’t have the funds of hundreds of other branches to compete. Sure, Home Depot isn’t a monopoly, but it’s interests are aligned exactly with those of its direct competitors. For all practical purposes, it is.
Doesn’t anyone think an authentic Chinese restaurant, say, might want to move into the Reston town center? But what happens when that thing gets planned? The “Yummy Foods” corporation – which might own P.F. Changs, T.G.I. Friday’s, and I.P. Freely’s – in alliance with the “Small City Development Group” (names sort of made up) have entered into a partnership, bought the land, and are setting up shop. What chance do you think that “Trunk’s Eats” has of being established near a population center under this paradigm? What kind of hassles do you think I’d have with a city board if I tried to buy land and build near one of these places. . .with the taxes they bring in, the deals they’ve entered into.
Near me, there is a street where the local businesses have banded together to keep out businesses like Starbucks and Barnes & Nobles. Of course they’re coffee shop owners, and bookstore owners and yet they’ve been – Christ All-fucking-mighty – called out for being anti-competitive. I’d like to see one of them try to get into a pre-fab “town center”.
But, fuck it. It’s easy to avoid. I can weep for it from afar. But, I really wonder if in the future people are going to think that their little generic cathedral of consumption is going to be worth defending, maintaining. What’s going to be left to love about being in the US, or your part of it?
[/QUOTE]
I don’t know about Reston Town Center since it has been a few years since I’ve bothered to venture out there, but Shirlington Town Center doesn’t really have large national chains. There is a Carlyle Grand which is part of a smaller DC area chain or restaurants, Capital City Brewing which I believe is the same, an Indian restaurant, a Japanese Restaurant, a Mexican restaurant, a Thai Place, an Italian restaurant, and a French restaurant which aren’t part of a chain as far as I know. There is also a deli type place which is a stand alone as well.
[QUOTE=even sven]
I think the thing that makes these developments so repulsive is that they admit to the things our cities once had and that we now long for- public space, walkability, local ownership. a sense of place, variety, spontanaity, a public life. But they don’t really offer that. Generally, you gotta drive your cars to these places and everything is heavily regulated (try, say, shooting a student video in one, or holding a protest, or being a street musician).
[/QUOTE]
Except, isn’t that how most city neighborhoods came about? My neighborhood was subdivided in 1888 or 1889 and the lots were sold off to builders who did things in a similar fashion. There is a neighborhood block two streets down from me, where the houses are look identical down to the same ornamentation on the facade. I would say that about half the houses in the neighborhoods near mine look the same. If you want heavily regulated, some of those same historic neighborhoods are just as tightly regimented as anything in the suburbs. They will tell you what you need to install wooden framed windows, they will require you to get approval to install a Dish antenna on your roof, or to make any other cosmetic changes.
I wonder whether we really long for walkability, local ownership. a sense of place, variety, spontaneity, and a public life. Local ownership can be rough as the service may suck. There are a lot of small carryout type places near me and the hours are hit or miss, and they may be closed despite the hours posted on the doors. One local coffeeshop was good but the other one had indifferent service and incredibly erratic hours as well. As for spontaneity, what does that even mean? Is it finding a crackhead smoking up in the neighbor’s yard? That was certainly spontaneous and unexpected. Is it the lack of privacy or the sounds of traffic day and night?
Don’t get me wrong, I like living in a city but I don’t think you should romanticize it into something it never was. There was a reason that people left after World War II.