It’s amusing to me that even sven, posting from Cameroon, is more active in the thread than VCO3, posting from Chicago.
That’s because 2x4’s are no longer 2 inches by 4 inches.
I thought of the same development when I read the OP, Asterion. A slightly different example (not quite as pre-fab and non-local, but similarly dispicable to me) is Nob Hill in Albuquerque. What most people here don’t seem to remember (or do, and supported it) was when some guy bought the whole Nob Hill area and threw out all the real, authentic businesses that had been there for 50 years: local grocery store (that delivered to elderly customers in the area), drug store with vintage neon cosmetics signs and a post office inside, shoe repair shop, barber shop, good bakery, etc. He tripled the rent so that only hipster boutiques, coffee bars, chic tattoo parlors and overpriced (albeit local) restaurants could afford to be there. The house values in the area also doubled or tripled (and I know, because I sold one there right before this happened and - just three years later - coulda sold it for over $100,000 more than I did). I’m the only person in town, apparently, who doesn’t think this is great. Nob Hill is not as interesting as similar “hip” districts in most other towns, seems mostly to reflect the interests and values of people from out of state, is overblown and over-rated. And flourishing.
Back to the OP; before you put a gun to your mouth, consider moving overseas. I lived in the Caribbean for some years in a nice country where there was a healthy middle class, no big box stores, no cute malls, not even a McDonalds or Burger King. I felt like my quality of life was better there than here in consumerland, and - if my family would support it - we’d be back there in a second. (Unfortunately, my kids are teenagers now…)
I know! I guess he said his piece, and now he’s out helping to renovate “authentic” old buildings in ratty neighborhoods. We all have to do our part to prevent Disneyland from encroaching.
It’s a small world, after all.
Now Pygmy is from Santa Fe, which also has a history most people don’t remember or know about. In about the 1930s, someone decided to create Santa Fe as a tourist town. An architect made up a style, inspired by the local Indian pueblos and what people liked to think of as “Spanish” and re-did the whole town, including the famous “Palace of the Governors” (which originally didn’t look at all like it does now). They made people think this was the original, historic look and even went so far as to make it the law that everything new - even Pizza Hut and Radio Shack - must be painted in one of several “adobe-type” colors. Talk about Disneyland. They put in new/old brick walkways and lots of galleries and attracted artists of the time. Although certainly cute and in a gorgeous spot below the mountains and with beautiful gardens, walls, sky and light, it has a distinct in-authentic tourist trap feel to me. Also, the waitstaff is almost all the overpriced restaurants are incredibly rude.
Sorry. I KNOW practically nobody agrees with me about this (except some people in Albuquerque who are busy complaining about our fake “Town Centre” strip malls!)
We do?
Hey, can you tell me where my XOM shares are going to be next year? I’m in the middle of rebalancing my portfolio and don’t wanna leave cash on the table by selling out too early. :rolleyes:
Close, though: at the beginning of the decade, developer Corky McMillan and friends bought the historic Naval Training Center from the City of San Diego (at a great loss to the city–of course, City Council members were on the green end of the deal waiting to stuff their pockets). They proceeded to almost completely level the base and replace it with Navy housing, tourist traps, shopping centers and…
wait for it…
A SMALL-SCALE RECREATION OF A NAVAL BASE IN SAN FRANCISCO.
They actually destroyed an enormous part of Navy history and replaced it with a replica of a less historically significant Navy base that any San Diegan could go visit in a day’s drive if they wanted to. Plus a soulless money-hole, as if Sea World (under 5 miles away) didn’t already flood Point Loma with enough tourists.
Huh. Spider-Man 3 is out? Then I guess that’s the first Spider-Man that my friends didn’t all but force me to go see several times in its opening week. Things are looking up! (To be fair, I didn’t actually have to watch the second one–my lady friend and I exchanged physical expressions of affection instead for the whole time. I can’t say it wasn’t worth it.)
How about the mall theatre in Tijuana where you can swill Captain Morgan and veg out on a couch while you watch your first-run movie?
If you hadn’t posted this, I’d have completely forgotten: When the abovementioned construction was going on at the site of the former Naval Training Center, two friends and I christened one of the new homes (merely plywood and insulation at that point) by sneaking into it, examining it room by room, and finally smoking ganja and fancy European cigarettes in what is probably now a bedroom. Tripping balls the whole time, of course. Sometimes I wonder who sleeps in that room now.
Well, I think the answer is pretty obvious, don’t you? We (mainly white) Americans moved out of the cities en masse after WWII for a variety of reasons, but the main one being that we didn’t want to fix what was wrong with the cities. The American dream is less about freedom, but more about peace of mind.
Had we had the benefits of 20/20 hindsight, we probably would have created some suburbs, but not at the expense of the inner cities. Some cities are making a comeback, but it was bleak for a while (New York?). But then, oh wait, we’re still building the same crap today in order to escape the problems of the poorer half of our society that lives in the city. There’s zero need to create new settlements in the middle of nowhere that resembles some kind of town. Might as well build one gigantic city in the middle of nowhere and have it so that it’s expensive enough that no poor people can live there. That’s the motive behind these things anyway.
“You know I’d like to live in a city, but I have kids and I’m concerned about their saftey and schooling.” I can see the heads nodding in agreement. “That’s why I moved to card-board box town”
We really ought to focus on not leaving the other half of our society behind and then maybe we can live together peacefully. I realize that most people don’t do these kinds of things our of malice, but it’s still the overall effect.
And I know gentrification uproots a lot of people but in the end I don’t think it’s horriffic. Take a city like New York. If you ever go to Harlem you can see that this place used to house some wealthy people. There are brownstones all over the place. It sucks that a lot of people are getting misplaced by gentrificaiton, but still the poor will still benefit from being around more money. They get to benefit from shared services, etc.
But these town centers? There nothing but the new suburbs for people who still are afraid to move back to the cities.
Well, given a choice between an old, run-down apartment and a sagging economic area, and a new house with a yard and room to raise kids, which would you choose?
maybe instead of the blame being on the people who moved out of the cities, the blame should be on many different factors, city councils, vested interests, increased prosperity, a desire for a better future for their children, developers…
I’m sure it’s more than just cowardly (mainly white) Americans.
You are ignoring the fact that many of these “town centers” are being built within existing cities. The two Atlanta examples mentioned are not out in the suburbs, but right in town, where they replaced industrial/blighted sites.
I’m plumb skeert of livin’ in the big city! They’s tall buildings, loud cars and funny-lookin’ people evahwhere.
And more Starbucks than you can shake a stick at.*
*if that’s your idea of fun.
I don’t think it’s true that there’s “zero need” for this kind of thing. These do get more people living where they can walk to shopping instead of driving, and I think that’s a very worthwhile goal, in environmental terms. If the condos are located near mass transit- even better. They get more people used to walking and using alternative transportation instead of jumping in their cars for everything.
You might have noticed that gas prices are a bit high right now. The usual clueless wonders have called for yet another “gas-out”. Those don’t work- the only way consumers can get the price of gas to go down is by driving less (or buying smaller cars). These developments encourage people to drive less. Encouraging people to drive less also reduces our dependence on foreign oil. Pick up pretty much any newspaper on any day to see some of the problems that our dependence on foreign oil is causing or making worse.
They don’t, of course, solve the problems of economic segregation in suburbs, but they do serve a purpose. I think they might help with getting people to move into the cities, though, indirectly. People who grow up in these condos think of having a condo and living within walking distance of shopping and transit instead of a house on a large lot and having to drive everywhere as a reasonable alternative. If more middle- and upper-class people see those things as normal and desirable, that makes city living potentially more attractive to them.
As I said in my earlier post, half a loaf is better than none. It’s better to work on the problem of car-dependent suburbs while not working on the problem of economic segregation than it is to work on neither problem.
Well, if his mom doesn’t stop for gas while driving him to his Magic-the-Gathering convention it may have escaped his notice.
I don’t know if even sven will be returning to this thread, and that is a shame.
I and she have a similar background, in some ways. She grew up in the town I lived in from the age of 13 to the age of 18. She has spoken about it in the past, usually in not-so-glowing terms. And for good reason.
The town in question was largely supported by an Air Force Base that closed down in the early-mid 90’s. This pretty much gutted the town, which wasn’t great to begin with.
Since then, a planning commision has turned the former AFB into a shipping hub, and a whole slew of housing. The town has incorporated, and recently (shortly after I moved) started building exactly what this thread is about…a a “pre-fab town center” in an infill area.
While I know even sven ran from town pretty much as soon as she could, and in fact now lives in Cameroon, I am curious to know her thoughts on this.
I will be checking it out in about 2 weeks.
If this thread is still around, I will give my impression, before and after.
This sounds like Rancho Cordova, CA. Is my guess right?
First: Lame, cuz nobody plays Magic the gathering anymore, secondly because I’m 25 so I never even played it although it is something that went on when I was in high school
Second: Fuck you, Although I don’t live in America, I am keenly aware of gas prices. If you had managed to check my location you’d have come up with a slightly more relevant put-down. I think it’s somewhere around 3 bucks a gallon? I don’t really care so much though because I had the forethought to buy a car that gets 50 MPG in 2003 (Diesel Jetta). So I’m happy if you are feeling the crunch because if you had any idea of what was going on in the world you’d have known what was coming. Sorry I saw it beforehand, but I’m going to go on a roadtrip this summer. Diesel is 2.57 a gallon, which probably makes an effective gas price of about 1.26 a gallon for a 25 MPG car. Even lower if you drive an SUV.
Of course my putdown was out-of-date and irrelevent, I’m about twice your age, so when I was in high school we traded baseball cards and comic books, in a snowstorm! I should have put a smilie at the end of my post, didn’t want to be seriously nasty. But I’m glad you’re back in the thread.
Does Denmark have this souless, prefab, small town mall/condo thing there? Where in America are you from?
and for the record, aw screw the record, I’m not feeling any crunch re: gas prices, (and I drive a minivan!) because I’ve been blessed with a decent salary and a good job. My drive to work is 10.32 mile, and gas was $2.30/gallon last time I filled up. I walk and bike almost everywhere else.
Good call on my missing your location though.
BMalion
Class act response. Honest.
We have this huge development that built its little town center. What I don’t understand is the businesses that are there. Sure there is a coffee shop, but the other businesses are art gallery, real estate office, fine dining restaraunt, etc. Sort of exactly the kind of places you don’t typically need close by. I’d be more impressed if there was a sandwich shop, a drug store, a small hardware store or things like that. Heck, the parking is so terrible there, I never even think to go there for coffee. While the intent was to have it be a walkable place, the reality is that virtually none of the businesses are, well, walkable.
Now let me tell you about our Town Center mall, where every shop looks like it is a different type of building. I didn’t even notice the first few times I was there, it was still an obnoxious, huge, mall.
We’re getting a “town center” development about a mile from my house. Its an in-fill project. The parcel was originally three office buildings surrounded by acres of parking lots. They have added several garages, both above- and below-ground, and are filling in the parking lots with a central plaza surrounded by a movie theater, a few hundred condos, a large grocery store, a student housing complex for nearby universities, and a bunch of restaurants and small stores.
I’m of two minds. Yeah, its pre-planned, but its mostly stuff that is useful to have within walking distance, especially the theater and the grocery store. Its good that people will be living there, too. Its a block from a subway station, so it will encourage car-free lifestyles, plus it’s across the street from a pre-existing mall containing a Target, a Macys, and a whole bunch of other stuff. So its within walking distance of a lot of stuff. And while most every store in the project is part of a chain, several of them are at least LOCAL chains owned by people who live in the DC area. So while its not perfect, its WAY better then nothing at all, and its not going to put anyone local out of business, because there are no freaking local stores right now!