# ID this time signature for me **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [December 10, 2025, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-this-time-signature-for-me/1025602 "2025-12-10T20:51:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2025, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-this-time-signature-for-me/1025602/1 "2025-12-10T20:51:07Z")
[Further to Fly](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU39FlPHNIM) by Paul Simon. Main verse sounds like 3/4, 6/4, or 12/4 and then I can’t even clock what’s going on in the chorus. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2025, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-this-time-signature-for-me/1025602/2 "2025-12-10T23:05:41Z")
I’ve been fooled by songs like this before, where odd downbeats and syncopation mask the fact that it’s something normal like 4/4. I can “conduct” the main verses in 4/4, but sometimes the beats are on 1 and 3, sometimes 1 and 4… … like you, I can’t get a handle on the chorus. ps: I, of course, bow to those with better ears. pps: Beautiful, intruiging song! ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2025, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-this-time-signature-for-me/1025602/3 "2025-12-10T23:16:44Z")
I think it’s simple 4/4 with some syncopated beats. Well, not simple, but still 4/4. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2025, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-this-time-signature-for-me/1025602/4 "2025-12-10T23:21:34Z")
Interesting. To me the intro and first verse are pretty clearly in 3/4 with some syncopation. FWIW, the first sheet music I could find online also start in 3/4. I haven’t listened to the chorus yet. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2025, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-this-time-signature-for-me/1025602/5 "2025-12-10T23:42:40Z")
I have posted similar questions about songs in odd meters and read a lot of others, and the answers always wildly differ. I have almost no musical schooling, but why is that? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2025, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-this-time-signature-for-me/1025602/6 "2025-12-11T00:59:32Z")
Usually it’s because how the time signatures are broken down can be a matter of opinion, so long as the number of total beats is accurate. For example, I’ve seen the verse of “All You Need Is Love” recorded as 7/4, and I’ve seen it as a bar of 4/4 followed by a bar of 3/4 (there are other meter changes in the song as well). In some songs it’s obvious what the signature is. In others it’s how it “feels” to the person writing it out. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2025, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-this-time-signature-for-me/1025602/7 "2025-12-11T01:12:10Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I think it’s simple 4/4 with some syncopated beats. Well, not simple, but still 4/4. Very sure the verse isn’t 4/4. If you count the 8th notes it’s a 6-count over and over (until it gets to the chorus which is just a muddle to me). ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2025, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-this-time-signature-for-me/1025602/8 "2025-12-11T01:24:37Z")
It’s basically a 6/8. 6/8 can feel like 4/4 though, four measures of 6/8 fits “within” the confines of 4/4. Has a similar feel to [Valencia](https://youtu.be/--baxlXjtPQ?si=f_k4TTFdPAa6Q3Pd)by Brazos. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2025, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-this-time-signature-for-me/1025602/9 "2025-12-11T11:24:51Z")
That’s kind of what I was thinking. I was leaning a little more toward 6/4 because the percussion phrasing makes it sounds like 4/4 and 2/2 measures alternating, like how sometimes 5/4 or 7/4 sounds like 2 composite measures. I have no hope of working out the chorus though. Somehow it sounds much like straight time but I can’t seem to work through it. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2025, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-this-time-signature-for-me/1025602/10 "2025-12-11T11:31:14Z")
I feel it as 12/8 for the verses, 13/8 for the choruses. 12/8 is felt as three groups, each with four beats. 13/8 is more “muddled,” but basically the same, just with an extra beat at the end. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2025, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-this-time-signature-for-me/1025602/11 "2025-12-11T11:56:00Z")
It’s basically 6 steady beats in a bar or phrase in a 2+2+2 configuration (as opposed to the 3+3 common to a 6/8 time signature), with a lot of syncopation around it and an extremely metrically-free vocal line. It could be three fast bars of 4/4 per phrase I suppose but how it’s actually notated - no idea. The starting downbeat of each phrase comes where you hear the low drum/bass note. You can tap out a moderate 6 or a fast 12 from there. But I don’t hear any 13-beat phrases unless you’re trying to follow the vocal line which is doing its own thing. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2025, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-this-time-signature-for-me/1025602/12 "2025-12-11T13:33:40Z")
I just sat down and clapped through the beats in the chorus like a 4th-grader, and I think the meter doesn’t actually differ from that of the chorus. I think a couple of things are happening here: 1. The vocal cadence does its own thing, a syncopated meter that seems like it was written for 4/4 or something more like a typical Paul Simon song. It doesn’t track the percussion very closely. 2. Percussion is doing the same thing in the chorus as in the verse, but the beat seems to drag in a couple of spots. I’m not sure if they’re actually dragging it, or the disjoint vocal meter is pulling my ear in a weird direction. But I’m pretty sure the overall meter isn’t changing as I thought. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2025, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-this-time-signature-for-me/1025602/13 "2025-12-11T16:09:54Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > It’s basically 6 steady beats in a bar or phrase in a 2+2+2 configuration You’re counting correctly, but I’d argue that you’re counting subdivisions as beats, and it’s better described as a slow 3 (1 + 2 + 3 +) instead of 6 (1 2 3 4 5 6). For those who don’t have the language to count everything you hear. we have beats: beats (quarter notes): 1, 2, 3 subdivisions (1/8th notes): 1 + 2 + 3 + (pronounced “one and two and three and”) subdivisions of the subdivisions (1/16th notes): 1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a (pronounced “one e and uh two e and uh three e and uh”). The hand percussion is steadily tapping out the 16th notes. Not to be obnoxious, but those who hear this in 4 are… well wrong. It might be helpful to listen to the bass, which keeps a steady ostinato (repeated musical phrase): 1 … 3 e, over and over, with a slightly more involved part in the middle section. Beats are strongly divided into groups of three, not four. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2025, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-this-time-signature-for-me/1025602/14 "2025-12-11T19:04:23Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > You’re counting correctly, but I’d argue that you’re counting subdivisions as beats, and it’s better described as a slow 3 (1 + 2 + 3 +) instead of 6 (1 2 3 4 5 6). I suppose, but it’d be a _very_ slow 3. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2025, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/id-this-time-signature-for-me/1025602/15 "2025-12-11T23:26:24Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > But I don’t hear any 13-beat phrases unless you’re trying to follow the vocal line which is doing its own thing. Yeah, I was relying mostly on the vocal line for this.