# Identifiably Jewish movie/TV villains? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 15, 2002, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825 "2002-12-15T01:53:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TheeGrumpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheeGrumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheeGrumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/21 "2002-12-15T18:00:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Krokodil \* > X-MEN–Magneto I know in the comics, Magneto was a gypsy (which doesn’t rule out being Jewish). I refuse to see the movie, so I don’t know if they altered or clarified this fact. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/22 "2002-12-15T18:42:19Z")
**TheeGrumpy,** Magneto has never been identified as a Gypsy in the comics and probably never will be. 2 reasons for this: 1. In the movie and the comics, he was a prisoner at Auschwitz as a child. Jews were sent there, but Gypsies were sent elsewhere (according to a rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe FAQ; I don’t know this as a fact). 2. Dr. Doom was a Gypsy, and it would be pretty bad to have Marvels two main villains both be Gypsies. His wife Magda may have been a Gypsy and his children were raised by Gypsies, but Magneto wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![cainxinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@cainxinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cainxinth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/23 "2002-12-15T19:30:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by carnivorousplant \* > \*\*Er, the Ferenghi in Deep Space Nine? \*\* I know you didn’t mean anything by it **carnivorousplant** , but that’s somewhat offensive. I no longer consider myself Jewish, but I know my family would prefer not to be compared to a race of greedy, unscrupulous, opportunists, even a fictional one. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/24 "2002-12-15T19:38:16Z")
cainxinth, I am Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![cainxinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@cainxinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cainxinth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/25 "2002-12-15T20:04:33Z")
A southern Jew? How do you like that. I still think it was insulting to Jews. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/26 "2002-12-15T20:08:07Z")
cainxinth, I ,Jewish as well, also always wondered if the Ferenghi were a play on Jewish stereotypes. Think the Jewish equivilent of Jar-Jar and Stepinfetchit. I just never would’ve wondered it out loud! Several posters have nailed this one. The question is based on a faulty premise. It equates a religious orientation with race. To be “identifiably Jewish” in a movie requires going out of the way to label a character as such and playing to some Jewish streotype. To be identifiably Black in a movie, the actor just needs to be at least biracial. Well, at least have some “Black features”. That said, if you want to play the bias game, compare races to races, and religions to religions. Compare the ratio of Black heros to Black villians, to the ratio of White heros to White villians. The losers are native Americans here; hard to overcome decades of bad Westerns. And for Jews compare the ratio of identified Jewish heros to villlians vs identified Lutherans, or Catholic heros to villians. Religious orientation just isn’t made a point in many villians’ personas. Jews might get a nod on the hero scale, because there have been a few movies made with Jewish themes, from the POV of a Jewish protagonist. (Depends on how you define hero, too. Think Woody Allen movies.) The ones who come out on the short stick of this comparison, methinks, is the Muslims … many more identified Muslim villians to heros. (I watch rebroadcasts of _Back to the Future_ and cringe.) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/27 "2002-12-15T20:42:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cainxinth \* > \*\*A southern Jew? How do you like that. I still think it was insulting to Jews. \*\* I apologize. Now you can apologize for “Southern Jew”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/28 "2002-12-15T20:57:01Z")
What about the junk dealer in The Phantom Menace? ---
**Author:** ![Protesilaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/29 "2002-12-15T21:12:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Laughing Lagomorph \* > \*\*There must be someone in the vast Pantheon of James Bond villains who fits the OP. \*\* Perhaps Karl Stromberg from _The Spy Who Loved Me_, but that’s just going by his last name. ---
**Author:** ![cainxinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@cainxinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cainxinth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/30 "2002-12-15T21:30:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by carnivorousplant \* > \*\*I apologize. > > Now you can apologize for “Southern Jew”. 🙂 \*\* I didn’t mean it as an insult. You’re just the first southern Jewish person I’ve met, outside of Flordia of course. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/31 "2002-12-15T21:46:55Z")
Gee, there’s even a Lubavitcher Rabbi here. 🙂 Nice to meet you. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/32 "2002-12-15T22:14:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Several posters have nailed this one. The question is based on a faulty premise. It equates a religious orientation with race. To be “identifiably Jewish” in a movie requires going out of the way to label a character as such and playing to some Jewish streotype. To be identifiably Black in a movie, the actor just needs to be at least biracial. Well, at least have some “Black features”. > \*\* I can’t dispute the truth of this, I just wonder if anyone would be making this point if the original post had asked about identifiably Jewish heroes instead of villains? ---
**Author:** ![Protesilaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/33 "2002-12-15T22:42:33Z")
Some of the villians from [_The Order_](http://us.imdb.com/Title?0193364) were corrupt Israeli police officers. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/34 "2002-12-15T23:08:41Z")
> [@](#): > > I just wonder if anyone would be making this point if the original post had asked about identifiably Jewish heroes instead of villains? I don’t see how this applies. If we were asking about Jewish heroes, we would be looking for _characters_ who were identifiably Jewish, not characters played by Jewish actors. Unless you think that people would be claiming that Captain Kirk and Indiana Jones[sup]\*[/sup] are Jewish because of the actors who play them. [sup]\*Harrison Ford’s mother was Jewish[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/35 "2002-12-15T23:23:51Z")
And Mr. Spock! ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/36 "2002-12-15T23:45:14Z")
**SpoilerVirgin,** I am, in fact, asking about Jewish characters (specifically villains), not Jewish actors. I apologize that this was not made clear in previous posts. While I’m vaguely sympathetic to the “How can you tell they’re Jewish, not Methodist?” argument, it’s somewhat irrelevant to what I’m asking. There are characters whose ethnic identity is relevant to their characterization, and it is these characters I’m asking about. I’m sure there are interesting films to be made about the tortured Methodist soul or the conflicted Unitarian identity, but they’re for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/37 "2002-12-15T23:51:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DSeid \* > \*\*The ones who come out on the short stick of this comparison, methinks, is the Muslims … many more identified Muslim villians to heros. (I watch rebroadcasts of _Back to the Future_ and cringe.) \*\* Why? I don’t see how that’s offensive. I mean, they were supposed to be Libyan terrorists. There was a lot of terrorisms in the 70s/80s…ergo, they were the perfect enemy. Anyway, Biff was white, so there. Also, what about Watto from the new Star Wars movies? Although that one really does cross over from normal character to blatantly offensive stereotype… BTW- I never realized Oswald Cobblepot in “Batman Returns” could have been construed aa Jewish… ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/38 "2002-12-16T00:14:28Z")
\<\< How is Cobblepot supposed to be a Jewish name?!? \>\> It was originally Cobblepotberg, but got changed at Ellis Island by an insensitive immigration official. Which is just back to my earlier statement, that a comparison of black villains to Jewish villians is idiotic, since there’s no way of telling whether a particular villain Jewish or not. Krokodil responds to that: > [@](#): > > There are characters whose ethnic identity is relevant to their characterization, and it is these characters I’m asking about. But you started by comparing to black villians. Do you discount villians who may be black, but their racial identity is irrelevant to their characterization? The fact is that such is almost impossible to find. The only exception I can think of is Darth Vader, who is voiced by a black actor, and who wears all black, but his racial identity is not black. Does he count as a black villain? It seems to me the whole question is meaningless. We’ve named Jewish characters who are villains, we’ve named Jewish actors who play villains, and it’s lunacy (as well as racism) to argue that there’s a dearth of such on the grounds that “Hollywood is controlled by the Jews.” ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/39 "2002-12-16T00:17:51Z")
\<\< How is Cobblepot supposed to be a Jewish name?!? \>\> It was originally Cobblepotberg, but got changed at Ellis Island by an insensitive immigration official. Which is just back to my earlier statement, that a comparison of black villains to Jewish villians is idiotic, since there’s no way of telling whether a particular villain Jewish or not. Names of characters are irrelevant – many “Jewish” names are German or Russian or Polish names, and you can find non-Jewish Rosenbergs, for instance, or Cohans or … Krokodil responds that: > [@](#): > > There are characters whose ethnic identity is relevant to their characterization, and it is these characters I’m asking about. But you started by comparing to black villians. Do you only count black villians whose racial identity is relevant to their characterization? The fact is that merely being a black actor means they are playing a black villian. The only exception I can think of is Darth Vader, who is voiced by a black actor, and who wears all black, but his racial identity is not black. Does he count as a black villain? It seems to me the whole question is meaningless. We’ve named Jewish characters who are villains, we’ve named Jewish actors who play villains, and it’s lunacy (as well as racism) to argue that there’s a dearth of such on the grounds that “Hollywood is controlled by the Jews.” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825/40 "2002-12-16T00:21:32Z")
Hollywood is controlled by Liberals, according to Rush Limbaugh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identifiably-jewish-movie-tv-villains/142825.md?page=3)