# Identify a 1919 Battleship? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 19, 2011, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248 "2011-03-19T12:58:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/1 "2011-03-19T12:58:05Z")
The picture is [here.](http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/012915.jpg) The picture was taken at Malta in 1919. The battleship in the foreground is the North Dakota. Behind her is what is identified as a British battleship. For no reason whatsoever, I am trying to find out which it is. I am starting to think it may be one of the Orion class (assuming the lump at the stern is a turret facing the viewer). Any thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![TheChileanBlob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thechileanblob/32/435_2.png) [@TheChileanBlob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheChileanBlob)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/2 "2011-03-19T13:55:13Z")
Hubby recommends [this](http://worldwar1.co.uk/battleship/hms-canada.html) website to find your battleship. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/3 "2011-03-19T13:59:00Z")
Thanks, I have a copy of Janes Fighting Ships of World War 1. Also referring to Big Bad Battleships on the Net but am not having much success 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![audit1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@audit1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audit1)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/4 "2011-03-19T14:59:27Z")
I think it is one of the Iron Duke class. Benbow, Emperor of India, Iron Duke or Marlborough. All four were with the Mediterramean fleet in 1919. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/5 "2011-03-19T19:12:25Z")
> [@audit1](#): > > I think it is one of the Iron Duke class. Benbow, Emperor of India, Iron Duke or Marlborough. All four were with the Mediterramean fleet in 1919. Second this. The picture doesn’t show the conspicuous derrick that the _Canada_ had between the funnels, and the stern doesn’t have the counter (if that’s the right term) of the _Canada_. ---
**Author:** ![wellanuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@wellanuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wellanuff)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/8 "2011-03-20T20:34:07Z")
Also have to agree it is not a member of the Orion class. The Orion class had the tripod mast _behind_ the first funnel. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/9 "2011-03-20T20:49:14Z")
Zooming in on the picture shows two aft turrets, but with a strange arrangement. The turret closest to midships is lower to the deck than the aft turret. I almost looks like it would not train to both port and starboard due to the structure aft. There can’t be too many battleships that were built that way, perhaps this will narrow it down? ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/10 "2011-03-20T21:55:49Z")
> [@wellanuff](#): > > The Orion class had the tripod mast _behind_ the first funnel. Agree. It’s either a King George V or Iron Duke class, which were very similar but had the mast in front of the first funnel (a very strange design flaw on the Orion class, as smoke from the funnel would obscure the view from the spotting top). The structure at the stern is a turret trained to port. The Q turret in the middle is in the centre of the ship, but at deck level, and unable to fire aft. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/11 "2011-03-21T00:00:13Z")
Yes, I think you are right about the Iron Duke class. I was a bit unsure because on the profile of the Iron Duke the structure in front of X Turret is lower than the turret itself. In this image it is taller. However, I’ve found a few pictures which show it higher so it possibly was reconstructed at some stage. I also considered Erin but it is missing a few secondary guns to be her. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/12 "2011-03-21T00:05:32Z")
Rick, I just zoomed into the picture and see what you mean. There appears to be a turret below Q turret (similar to say the Neptune but configured differently). However on looking closer I’m pretty sure it is not a gun- it seems to be a plank or such lowered over the side. It is longer than the other guns. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/13 "2011-03-21T05:27:11Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Agree. It’s either a King George V or Iron Duke class, which were very similar but had the mast in front of the first funnel (a very strange design flaw on the Orion class, as smoke from the funnel would obscure the view from the spotting top). > > The structure at the stern is a turret trained to port. The Q turret in the middle is in the centre of the ship, but at deck level, and unable to fire aft. Iron Duke class. It lacks the kingposts aft of Q turret that the King George V class all had while it does have the structures, (searchlight mounts?) on the aft of the after funnel that the KGV class lacked. (There is a crane or derrick aft of Q, but it arises from the deck rather than the top of the cabin as in the KGV class.) ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/14 "2011-03-21T06:18:12Z")
They are searchlights just behind the after funnel (if it is Iron Duke class). They also mounted a couple of anti aircraft guns, but they were on the aft deckhouse. First British battleship to carry these. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/15 "2011-03-21T06:47:59Z")
Consensus seems to be Iron Duke class, and I don’t really know much about British warships, so I have nothing to add there. I do recall that sometimes it’s as important to consider when a picture was taken as it is to know what a ship looks like, as some ships have changed drastically in appearance from one refit to the next (i.e.: Many battleships didn’t get the “piled up” look they have with the one huge superstructure until around WWII, before that they were lower to the water with the superstructure being smokestacks and masts). Usually only the most fundamental things stay the same, mainly the main armament. And yeah, for some reason, there was a period where they’d put one turret in the middle of the ship which couldn’t fire fore or aft. I think once they went from twin-turrets to triple-turrets for the main battery, the middle turret disappeared and the two guns lost were made up for and then some by the additional guns in the other turrets. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/16 "2011-03-21T14:13:25Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > And yeah, for some reason, there was a period where they’d put one turret in the middle of the ship which couldn’t fire fore or aft. I think once they went from twin-turrets to triple-turrets for the main battery, the middle turret disappeared and the two guns lost were made up for and then some by the additional guns in the other turrets. It wasn’t a huge problem, as the ships were designed to fight on the broadside. The Q turret wasn’t mounted higher because turrets are very heavy, and top-weight was an issue. It wasn’t an ideal arrangement, but was much less wasteful than having wing turrets. In fact, even though the Orions had two pairs of super-firing turrets, the turrets couldn’t fire directly each other, as they were fitted with sighting hoods. Doing so wouldn’t have damaged the other turret or injured the gun crew. The later Queen Elizabeth battleships were initially designed to have the same layout. However, it was realised that with the switch to the heavier 15" gun, the Q turret could be removed and replaced with boilers. This still gave a heavier broadside than the earlier ships, while increasing speed by about 3 knots. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/17 "2011-03-21T21:43:39Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > The later Queen Elizabeth battleships were initially designed to have the same layout. However, it was realised that with the switch to the heavier 15" gun, the Q turret could be removed and replaced with boilers. This still gave a heavier broadside than the earlier ships, while increasing speed by about 3 knots. This reminds me of another interesting thing. Battleship design is evidently a balancing act between three things: Speed, Armor, and Firepower. Getting more of one usually costs you something from the other categories, due to space and weight considerations in the ship itself. At some point, American ship designers decided to just make the speed a fixed variable, and all further designs were based around matching a certain max speed, with increasing amounts of armor and firepower. The idea was, since battleships fought in groups and not individuals, it just didn’t make any sense to design a battleship that could outrun the rest of the fleet. ---
**Author:** ![kombatminipig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5ac83/32.png) [@kombatminipig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kombatminipig)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/18 "2011-03-22T07:59:51Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > This reminds me of another interesting thing. Battleship design is evidently a balancing act between three things: Speed, Armor, and Firepower. Getting more of one usually costs you something from the other categories, due to space and weight considerations in the ship itself. At some point, American ship designers decided to just make the speed a fixed variable, and all further designs were based around matching a certain max speed, with increasing amounts of armor and firepower. > > The idea was, since battleships fought in groups and not individuals, it just didn’t make any sense to design a battleship that could outrun the rest of the fleet. This may be true, but as I see it, it would lead to a stagnation in ship speeds. As capital ships (then, and now) often are built in sets, it would mean that squadron speeds would always stay fixed, as at now time would the entire fleet be replaced in one shot. On the other hand, prior to WW1 the British envisioned the Fast Battleship (and to a lesser extent the Battlecruiser) model, where faster, less armored ships of the line would head the van, and be quick enough to cross the enemy’s T while the main fleet would pound the line. By the battle of Jutland though, the well armored German König-class battleship could do 23 knots to the Queen Elisabeth fast-battleship’s 24, nullifying any advantage. This resulted in the up-armored QEs becoming the new ships of the line postwar, while the battlecruisers (like HMS Hood) were simply a bad idea, and would be sadly proven so. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/19 "2011-03-22T08:43:15Z")
> [@kombatminipig](#): > > This may be true, but as I see it, it would lead to a stagnation in ship speeds. As capital ships (then, and now) often are built in sets, it would mean that squadron speeds would always stay fixed, as at now time would the entire fleet be replaced in one shot. > > On the other hand, prior to WW1 the British envisioned the Fast Battleship (and to a lesser extent the Battlecruiser) model, where faster, less armored ships of the line would head the van, and be quick enough to cross the enemy’s T while the main fleet would pound the line. By the battle of Jutland though, the well armored German König-class battleship could do 23 knots to the Queen Elisabeth fast-battleship’s 24, nullifying any advantage. This resulted in the up-armored QEs becoming the new ships of the line postwar, while the battlecruisers (like HMS Hood) were simply a bad idea, and would be sadly proven so. Iknow this is getting in Great Debates territory, but I can’t let that comment about the battle cruiser model being to cross the T. The concept of the battle cruiser was simply a “super cruiser”. It would defend trade routes where it would be able to smash any raiders or enemy armoured cruisers. They were not to fight with a fleet until the allure of large calibre guns proved too much. "Fishers enthusiasm… was linked to the development of big gun armed cruisers called battlecruisers from 1911. Initially conceived to deal with the threat to trade posed by France and Russia’s armoured cruisers, they avoided the old policy of simply building more ships… To keep the size and cost within acceptable limits the protection was restricted to cruiser standard six inch armour against the 9 or 10 inch of a battleship. From “Admirals” by Andrew Lambert ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/20 "2011-03-22T17:03:34Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > Iknow this is getting in Great Debates territory, but I can’t let that comment about the battle cruiser model being to cross the T. > > The concept of the battle cruiser was simply a “super cruiser”. It would defend trade routes where it would be able to smash any raiders or enemy armoured cruisers. They were not to fight with a fleet until the allure of large calibre guns Right. BCs were envisioned as being able to _outrun_ anything that could hurt them and _outrange_ anything else. Properly handled, a battlecruiser would engage weaker ships at a range they could not fight back and simply flee before stronger, slower ships reached firing position…and never receive fire in a fair fight at all. Their _purpose_ was to be unfair. Using BCs in fleet battle to engage capital ships was a misuse of the design concept. I agree that for a commander who thought in terms of numbers, the temptation was almost irresistible to put them into the line of battle, because that way you’d have “more” big-gun ships. But it _should_ have been resisted. . ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identify-a-1919-battleship/575248/21 "2011-03-22T18:00:54Z")
Absolutely. It should also be said that in WWI, at the Battle of the Falkland Islands, battle cruisers were used as they were intended to be (once they could be pryed out of Jellicoe’s hands, that is), to crush enemy surface raiders, and did very well.