# Identity Crisis #2--UNBOXED SPOILERS INSIDE! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 15, 2004, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196 "2004-07-15T02:21:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/21 "2004-07-22T12:48:48Z")
> [@The Asbestos Mango](#): > > One thing, though, I’m a little in the dark as to whether Ralph saw the other little present Sue put in the box with the magnifying glass. There was no mention of it outside the panel it appeared in. I think it’s a pretty safe assumption that Batman found it on his investigation of the scene, and being as how Batman would not be so foolish as to disturb a crime scene, the others would surely have found it as well. Eh, might’ve been mostly destroyed by the fire. Or Batman could’ve lifted it to spare Ralph additional pain. Or GA could’ve done the same. Or the assailant might’ve taken it. Of course, the autopsy would’ve noticed the baby. > [@](#): > > I was a little disturbed that the five conspirators would have kept their suspicions about Dr. Light from the rest of the JLA. I imagine that they will find out sooner or later. Barbara is bound to tell Bruce they went after him, and Bruce is bound to find out why. Batman and the Green Arrow seem to be pretty tight just of late, and I’m sure that Ollie will 'fess up sooner or later. Six conspirators, unless you’re leaving out Ralph. Or the Atom - he’s a small guy, hard to see. 😉 I imagine Bruce knows. Or suspects. We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/22 "2004-07-22T16:09:00Z")
One thing about Sue. I wonder if we’ll find out that her memory of the incident was wiped? It’s been suggested that she’s never been written as a rape survivor (I’m not sure there’s a single personality profile that would describe somebody in that situation) so maybe they’ll establish that her memory was altered so she remembered him attacking her, but not that part of it. ---
**Author:** ![cbawlmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cbawlmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cbawlmer)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/23 "2004-07-22T17:12:00Z")
> [@photopat](#): > > One thing about Sue. I wonder if we’ll find out that her memory of the incident was wiped? It’s been suggested that she’s never been written as a rape survivor (I’m not sure there’s a single personality profile that would describe somebody in that situation) > so maybe they’ll establish that her memory was altered so she remembered him attacking her, but not that part of it. No, there’s really not just one personality profile for rape survivors. And yes, they could’ve wiped her mind of the entire incident, but I wonder if Ralph would allow them to do that to her. I’d consider it mental rape myself. Much better to let Sue and Ralph deal with it in a healthy way. I also think it’s less morally objectionable to kill Dr. Light than to scramble his brains like that. I’m against the death penalty, but what they did was horrible. I love this series. Fascinating stuff. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/24 "2004-07-22T18:19:07Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Eh, might’ve been mostly destroyed by the fire. Or Batman could’ve lifted it to spare Ralph additional pain. Or GA could’ve done the same. Or the assailant might’ve taken it. > > Of course, the autopsy would’ve noticed the baby. The box was sitting, open, beside Sue’s body when Ralph was holding her. I’m just wondering if he was simply too distraught to notice what was in it. Batman knows, that’s a gimme. I don’t think it unlikely that he would have removed it from the scene, for the reason you just mentioned. The autopsy would have found it, sure, but would Doc think it necessary to mention? Six conspirators, unless you’re leaving out Ralph. Or the Atom - he’s a small guy, hard to see. 😉 I imagine Bruce knows. Or suspects. We’ll see. [/QUOTE] Eight, actually, unless Wally and/or Kyle spill. I do tend to leave Ralph out of the “conspiracy” though, because he didn’t know about the memory wipe until just this issue. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/25 "2004-07-22T18:36:31Z")
> [@The Asbestos Mango](#): > > The box was sitting, open, beside Sue’s body when Ralph was holding her. I’m just wondering if he was simply too distraught to notice what was in it. Batman knows, that’s a gimme. I don’t think it unlikely that he would have removed it from the scene, for the reason you just mentioned. The autopsy would have found it, sure, but would Doc think it necessary to mention? Don’t know all the facts yet - it’s remotely possible that Sue’s pregnancy had something to do with her death - and that the removal of the pregnancy test was done by the villain in question - who may have also had some way to get rid of the unborn child. The only thing that leads me to think all that is that we _don’t_ see or hear anymore about the pregnancy after the test is first shown, do we? > [@](#): > > Eight, actually, unless Wally and/or Kyle spill. I do tend to leave Ralph out of the “conspiracy” though, because he didn’t know about the memory wipe until just this issue. I was counting the original conspirators… I’d gotten the impression that while Ralph wasn’t one of the ones who voted on the mind alteration, he would’ve been aware of it. I can’t imagine the JLA wouldn’t have told him what they did, in those circumstances. So, who else is aware besides our conspirators, I wonder? I’d wager J’onn and Batman both know what happened to Dr. Light. ---
**Author:** ![cbawlmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cbawlmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cbawlmer)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/26 "2004-07-22T19:59:19Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Of course, the autopsy would’ve noticed the baby. Was the autopsy complete, or did he only get as far as noticing the lungs when he placed the call we saw? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/27 "2004-07-22T20:04:44Z")
> [@cbawlmer](#): > > Was the autopsy complete, or did he only get as far as noticing the lungs when he placed the call we saw? Hm. Good question. We have no indication as to whether he completed or not - but Dr. Mid-Nite has proven himself a detail-oriented chap in the past… and who in their right mind would cut corners in an investigation in which the Batman has taken a personal interest? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cbawlmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cbawlmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cbawlmer)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/28 "2004-07-22T20:29:22Z")
Damn gremlins ate my post. Maybe post weevils. Anyway… I wasn’t implying Dr. Mid-nite was doing shoddy work. I just wondered if maybe he got as far as the lungs, saw what he saw, and thought, “Holy crap, I’d better let everyone know before they eviscerate Dr. Light!”. If I knew I stop them from doing MORE terrible things to Dr. Light, I wouldn’t sit on that info for several more hours of autopsy fun. He could’ve stopped, made the call, and then gone back to work. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/29 "2004-07-22T23:26:09Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Unless someone decides that being a costumed super-villain is itself a personality disorder? I think Arkham had a 2/3 cracked administrator who thought that. You know, I think the only issue I would even raise with an opinion like that is what to _name_ such a disorder. > [@cbawlmer](#): > > I also think it’s less morally objectionable to kill Dr. Light than to scramble his brains like that. I’m against the death penalty, but what they did was horrible. _That’s_ interesting…now, I’m never one to shy away from the possibility of killing a murderous villain who has a talent for prison escapes, but why is actually _killing_ someone more moral than “scrambling their brains,” which might actually _cure_ them of their supervillain tendencies? For an insane supervillain, that might be considered as a legitimate a psychiatric treatment as, say, anti-psychotic medication. What if you did a “halfway” measure, and did something like, say, _paralyzing_ supervillains with a few deft incisions to their spinal chord? Or putting them in a chemically-induced coma? ---
**Author:** ![cbawlmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cbawlmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cbawlmer)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/30 "2004-07-23T00:00:47Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > _That’s_ interesting…now, I’m never one to shy away from the possibility of killing a murderous villain who has a talent for prison escapes, but why is actually _killing_ someone more moral than “scrambling their brains,” which might actually _cure_ them of their supervillain tendencies? For an insane supervillain, that might be considered as a legitimate a psychiatric treatment as, say, anti-psychotic medication. > > What if you did a “halfway” measure, and did something like, say, _paralyzing_ supervillains with a few deft incisions to their spinal chord? Or putting them in a chemically-induced coma? Putting someone in a permanent coma is pretty much the same as killing them. If they’re than bad and uncontainable. If they’d paralyzed Dr. Light, I’m sure he still would’ve given a go at exploiting the information he had on what he’d done to Sue. His threats were psychological as much as they were physical. Mind-raping him didn’t stop him from being a villain, either. He still was a villain, but now he was a pathetic, crappy one. He \*deserved \* what he got, sure, but I don’t see how it’s better or more humane than just putting down a dangerous nutjob. It says more about the people who did it to him than it does about Dr. Light. ---
**Author:** ![cbawlmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cbawlmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cbawlmer)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/31 "2004-07-23T00:02:30Z")
> [@cbawlmer](#): > > If they’re than bad and uncontainable. Heh, whoops. I think I meant, "If they’re that bad and uncontainable, best to put them out of everyone’s misery. It’s not like the coma is going to make them get better. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/32 "2004-07-23T00:08:57Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > You know, I think the only issue I would even raise with an opinion like that is what to _name_ such a disorder. Welllllll… Since most of the costumed supervillians I can think of were actually pretty nice people until they had that One Really Bad Day… Antisocial Secondary Personality Disorder? ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/33 "2004-07-23T01:46:25Z")
> [@cbawlmer](#): > > Mind-raping him didn’t stop him from being a villain, either. He still was a villain, but now he was a pathetic, crappy one. It turned him from a foam-at-the-mouth psychopath into a pathetic, crappy villain. All things considered, that’s quite a bit of progress…I don’t think that Arkham’s _ever_ managed to effect that much change on one of it’s inmates. Perhaps the psycho-magical technique used by the JLA conspiracy could be further refined to get better results (Like just erasing the memories/personality of the subject, and replacing them with a harmless personality, a la _Babylon 5_), or some other technique could be used to correct a subject’s personality behavior. > [@](#): > > He \*deserved \* what he got, sure, but I don’t see how it’s better or more humane than just putting down a dangerous nutjob. It says more about the people who did it to him than it does about Dr. Light. And I don’t see how it’s _worse_ then just killing the villain—at least with the mind-tampering, you have the possibility of actually rehabilitating the subject. Or, at least, making him much less dangerous without actually killing him. That, I imagine, would be the appeal to moralistic superheroes who are _normally opposed to outright killing._ Of course, personally, I’d still prefer just shooting villains in the back of the head with a large-caliber bullet, and then cremating the corpse. It’s quicker, less risky, and morally justifiable. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/34 "2004-07-23T02:09:36Z")
What, like if you killed 'em, they’d actually stay dead? We’re talking about comic-books, here, children. Anyhoo… **CandidGamera** , I think that Sue’s pregnancy will become a plot point later in the series. I can’t imagine the little at-home pregnancy test being put into an inset panel like that for the sole purpose of making the reading audience feel all sad. It wouldn’t be there if there wasn’t a plot-related reason. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/35 "2004-07-23T06:38:39Z")
> [@The Asbestos Mango](#): > > What, like if you killed 'em, they’d actually stay dead? > We’re talking about comic-books, here, children. Hell, it’d slow 'em down. Longer than prison would, at least. ---
**Author:** ![cbawlmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cbawlmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cbawlmer)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/36 "2004-07-23T17:14:02Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > It turned him from a foam-at-the-mouth psychopath into a pathetic, crappy villain. All things considered, that’s quite a bit of progress…I don’t think that Arkham’s _ever_ managed to effect that much change on one of it’s inmates. Perhaps the psycho-magical technique used by the JLA conspiracy could be further refined to get better results (Like just erasing the memories/personality of the subject, and replacing them with a harmless personality, a la _Babylon 5_), or some other technique could be used to correct a subject’s personality behavior. I thought it was wrong on _Babylon 5_ too. That was a great episode though. I almost mentioned in my previous post. 🙂 > [@Ranchoth](#): > > And I don’t see how it’s _worse_ then just killing the villain—at least with the mind-tampering, you have the possibility of actually rehabilitating the subject. Or, at least, making him much less dangerous without actually killing him. That, I imagine, would be the appeal to moralistic superheroes who are _normally opposed to outright killing._ Mind-tampering isn’t rehabilition. Come on, didn’t you see/read _A Clockwork Orange_? 😉 My personal solution would be to build a super-secret fortress prison about a mile below the surface of the moon, near the JLA’s base there. If your choices are killing a villain, scrambling his brains, or putting him in jail, the best choice is a secret jail nobody even knows about. A jail that is virtually inaccessible to anyone who would help a villain escape, even if they knew where he was. Dr. Light could disappear and never be heard from again. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/37 "2004-07-23T17:19:22Z")
Which brings us to the question… Exactly how would one go about capturing/locking up/hell, just beating the snot out of someone who can teleport? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/38 "2004-07-23T17:32:29Z")
> [@The Asbestos Mango](#): > > Which brings us to the question… > > Exactly how would one go about capturing/locking up/hell, just beating the snot out of someone who can teleport? The answer, of course, is ‘it depends’ - on the method and conditions of the person’s teleportation. I presume our focus (ba-dum-bum) is Dr. Light, yes? He was incarcerated inside Green Lantern’s power battery for a stretch. One could also use generic ‘Power dampener’ devices. I’m also not sure how often he can teleport. Did anyone else notice that Dr. Light has reverted to his somewhat goofy finhead appearance, after having adopted a cooler, modern look for the ‘Injustice Gang’ JLA storyline? (A storyline that I know the artist and writer are aware of, since the villains are using the IG’s old satellite as a base). ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/39 "2004-07-24T02:31:04Z")
> [@cbawlmer](#): > > Mind-tampering isn’t rehabilition. Come on, didn’t you see/read _A Clockwork Orange_? Why _can’t_ it be rehabilitation? A psychopath is a person suffering from a personality disorder—a disorder which some mind tampering has shown some promise in alleviating, perhaps even removing completely. If a supervillain like, say, the _Joker,_ was found to be suffering from a simple neurochemical imbalance that was causing his insanity (and, hence, his “evilness”), would it be immoral to force him to take psychiatric medication that would essentially return him to “normal”? ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2004, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196/40 "2004-07-24T10:26:42Z")
Mind-tampering circumvents free will, the mindsets of guilt and pentience, the journey to self-redemption. It forces the violated mind to accept the conditioning imposed on it. It’s an imminently _practical_ solution but let’s not pretend it’s anything other than fascist and amoral. It’s not immoral. It’s expedient. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-crisis-2-unboxed-spoilers-inside/255196.md?page=3)