# Identity, politics, and the in-fighting of the left **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2019, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199 "2019-11-09T10:42:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/401 "2020-07-29T14:46:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So if there are two shops, one with a Trump supporting boss and one without, I’m obligated to choose the Trump shop? Under what circumstances should I or shouldn’t I pick the non-Trump shop? 'Cause I’m inclined to pick the non-Trump one every time, and I can’t figure out why I should feel bad about it. How about you pick the one that has the best sandwiches, or the one that is most convenient for you? Only associating with people who share your beliefs is what creates ghettos. We don’t need more of those. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/402 "2020-07-29T14:50:14Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > How about you pick the one that has the best sandwiches, or the one that is most convenient for you? > > Only associating with people who share your beliefs is what creates ghettos. We don’t need more of those. Usually I have no idea about the politics of the business owners I go to. But sometimes I do. And sometimes the only difference is their politics. And in that case, that’s going to be a part of my decision. Why shouldn’t it be? Trump isn’t just some random wrong politician. He’s the most hateful, bigoted, corrupt, misogynistic, and dangerous President in 100 years, if not more. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/403 "2020-07-29T14:50:49Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Yes, that’s the ‘maybe that’s a good thing’ option I considered above. I don’t think it holds up: a view not uttered isn’t a view not present, and I’m not sure we want a society where people pay lip service to certain views that happen to be socially en vogue, while privately—and in perhaps self-selected ‘safe spaces’, online or elsewhere—holding to different views. Lasting change, I think, can only come from changing people’s hearts, not just their speech. In other words: people may have learned to hide, but that doesn’t mean that what’s hidden isn’t there, and there’s always a danger that these things come back out of hiding. So the question is whether we prefer an Obama era or Trump era expression of racism. It seems to me that in the Trump era the things that people were thinking privately were given license to be said out loud. Some may say, well good, now we know the extent of the problem. But People of Color have suffered the brunt of this outward racism and I don’t think it’s worth it if you asked POCs (but I can only speak for myself). I’d rather have socially discouraged racism that is hidden from public view as opposed to outwardly expressed racism. Sure it can come back up (as it has), but that requires us to be vigilant about saying certain things are unacceptable. Changing peoples hearts I don’t think happens from letting the racists run free. In fact I’ve seen people actually become more racist from listening to other folks being able to say explicitly racist things. I’ve seen this in my in-laws for one (going from hold-my-nose Trumpers to gung ho Trump is right and adopting some of his racist musings) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/404 "2020-07-29T14:56:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So if there are two shops, one with a Trump supporting boss and one without, I’m obligated to choose the Trump shop? Under what circumstances should I or shouldn’t I pick the non-Trump shop? 'Cause I’m inclined to pick the non-Trump one every time, and I can’t figure out why I should feel bad about it. I think there are two fundamental things you don’t quite seem to understand: 1. It was a _really_ good sandwich. I still think about it often. There is no non-Trump shop, and I’ve tried many, that compares. 2. If the choice was a hat shop where one sold MAGA hats and the other sold non-Trump hats, the product says something about the shop and the hat I chose would say something about me. The sandwich, on the other hand, says nothing about the shop or me. It just wants to be enjoyed without judgement. On a more serious note: You can choose which ever shop you like. I can choose whichever shop I like. You and I can both agree that Trump is deplorable. You and I are not required to jump on the boycott train based on that criteria alone, BECAUSE, it is too simple-minded (forgive the expression) to conclude that the only individual who suffers is the one we are ostensibly punishing for their politics. It would be lovely were that to be true, but it demonstrably isn’t. Nor can we always be sure we know everything there is to know about the person we are about to punish. Finally, and I hope not least importantly, it is okay to disagree about some things and still not act in a way that crosses into what, in some instances reaches into punishment for thought crimes. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/405 "2020-07-29T15:00:46Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I think there are two fundamental things you don’t quite seem to understand: > > 1. It was a _really_ good sandwich. I still think about it often. There is no non-Trump shop, and I’ve tried many, that compares. > 2. If the choice was a hat shop where one sold MAGA hats and the other sold non-Trump hats, the product says something about the shop and the hat I chose would say something about me. The sandwich, on the other hand, says nothing about the shop or me. It just wants to be enjoyed without judgement. > > On a more serious note: You can choose which ever shop you like. I can choose whichever shop I like. You and I can both agree that Trump is deplorable. You and I are not required to jump on the boycott train based on that criteria alone, BECAUSE, it is too simple-minded (forgive the expression) to conclude that the only individual who suffers is the one we are ostensibly punishing for their politics. It would be lovely were that to be true, but it demonstrably isn’t. Nor can we always be sure we know everything there is to know about the person we are about to punish. Finally, and I hope not least importantly, it is okay to disagree about some things and still not act in a way that crosses into what, in some instances reaches into punishment for thought crimes. Right – we can choose any sandwich shop we like. And we can include politics in our reasoning if we like. Even if others are advocating doing the same thing. I wouldn’t do it for someone who likes Mitt Romney. There’s a difference between Romney and Trump. But even for Trump, I don’t go out of my way to determine the political preferences of every business I give money to. If I find out, I might include that in my consideration. And that’s absolutely fine. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/406 "2020-07-29T15:09:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Usually I have no idea about the politics of the business owners I go to. But sometimes I do. Another instance of the arbitrariness of cancel culture. You’re happy to give your money to Trump supporters all day long, but if it comes to your attention then you won’t patronise one any more. And if some officious person starts a campaign, it can ruin them. How does that benefit anyone? You do understand that the sum of many people’s individual actions can have an effect on society, right? What are you trying to achieve here? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/407 "2020-07-29T15:09:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right – we can choose any sandwich shop we like. And we can include politics in our reasoning if we like. Even if others are advocating doing the same thing. > > I wouldn’t do it for someone who likes Mitt Romney. There’s a difference between Romney and Trump. > > But even for Trump, I don’t go out of my way to determine the political preferences of every business I give money to. If I find out, I might include that in my consideration. And that’s absolutely fine. Look at us being all fucking reasonable and shit. 🙂 Circling back to the subject of cancel culture, it is not always so amicable. More and more we are seeing examples of speech that is judged based not on its arguments but which side those arguments appear to be in support of. As the OP suggests, that seems to be more often true for the left than the right. I tend to agree but my observations are strictly anecdotal. I wonder, is the right engaged in cancel culture? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/408 "2020-07-29T15:11:32Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I wonder, is the right engaged in cancel culture? Ask the Dixie Chicks or Bill Maher (and to the professors targeted by Bari Weiss as discussed earlier) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/409 "2020-07-29T15:13:03Z")
Fair enough. Stupid question on my part. There are entire news networks being cancelled by the right. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/410 "2020-07-29T15:13:08Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Another instance of the arbitrariness of cancel culture. You’re happy to give your money to Trump supporters all day long, but if it comes to your attention then you won’t patronise one any more. And if some officious person starts a campaign, it can ruin them. How does that benefit anyone? > > You do understand that the sum of many people’s individual actions can have an effect on society, right? What are you trying to achieve here? So you’re saying that I’m obligated to not consider politics for business at all? I’m not trying to accomplish anything in particular with my shopping preferences other than the obvious (get a sandwich if I’m hungry). But I am free to make these decisions for whatever reason I want, and sometimes I include politics in that decision. And you’ve so far failed to convince me that there’s anything wrong with this. Occasionally I might make a more serious decision about a boycott. Like I deliberately avoid purchasing music from artists like Chris Brown who have abused women. But that’s a bit more unusual. So far you haven’t explained to me what exactly I’m doing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/411 "2020-07-29T15:15:36Z")
Exactly. Some version of cancel culture has been the norm for the right for decades, if not more. Jim Crow was highly organized cancel culture FOR racism. And it was highly effective! Racism really flourished with that type of cancel culture. We can use some of the same tactics against racism, and it really can be effective. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/412 "2020-07-29T15:16:10Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Fair enough. Stupid question on my part. There are entire news networks being cancelled by the right. Though, the right tries to justify it and says it is different than cancel culture - but it really isn’t. This isn’t even mentioning trying to use the state to literally censor artists like N.W.A. (preventing them from playing “Fuck the Police” at concerts) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/413 "2020-07-29T15:19:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We can use some of the same tactics against racism, and it really can be effective. Agreed. But as I’ve been trying to show, it can go too far. Would you agree? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/414 "2020-07-29T15:21:04Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Agreed. But as I’ve been trying to show, it can go too far. Would you agree? Sure – it can go too far. But I’m not sure if it did with Taylor Gourmet. No one is obligated to buy their sandwiches. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/415 "2020-07-29T15:22:30Z")
What would be too far for you, iiandyiiii? When the stasi start arresting people? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/416 "2020-07-29T15:22:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No one is obligated to buy their sandwiches. Quite missing the point, but if I’ve not made mine clear already, I don’t think I stand a chance. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/417 "2020-07-29T15:23:59Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > What would be too far for you, iiandyiiii? When the stasi start arresting people? Picking the wrong targets, or doing bad things like death threats and harassment. You’ve still avoided answering most of my questions. What am I doing wrong? What should I be doing differently? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/418 "2020-07-29T15:24:33Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > I’m not sure we want a society where people pay lip service to certain views that happen to be socially en vogue, while privately—and in perhaps self-selected ‘safe spaces’, online or elsewhere—holding to different views. Which describes what “respectable society” has been like for most of recorded history, and it has been denounced by preachers and philosophers for just about as long. And some times the lip-service hypocrisy was not even thinly veiled (e.g. the USA under Jim Crow; or any “Christian” king in Medieval Europe). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/419 "2020-07-29T15:28:36Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Quite missing the point, but if I’ve not made mine clear already, I don’t think I stand a chance. I think it’s because you’re making a very simple thing (choosing a sandwich shop) much more complicated. But it’s still very simple IMO. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/420 "2020-07-29T15:34:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think it’s because you’re making a very simple thing (choosing a sandwich shop) much more complicated. But it’s still very simple IMO. How is it that you can understand microaggressions, where each person’s individual action, unintended and pretty harmless in itself, contributes to something harmful, but you can’t understand how cancel culture does the same? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199.md?page=22)