# Identity, politics, and the in-fighting of the left **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2019, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199 "2019-11-09T10:42:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/421 "2020-07-29T15:35:53Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > How is it that you can understand microaggressions, where each person’s individual action, unintended and pretty harmless in itself, contributes to something harmful, but you can’t understand how cancel culture does the same? “Cancel culture” is a tactic, nothing more. It can be used for good or for ill. I’m in favor of using it for good and against using it for ill. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/422 "2020-07-29T15:36:10Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > So the question is whether we prefer an Obama era or Trump era expression of racism. I think—perhaps hope—that’s a false dichotomy: to get rid of racism once and for all, it won’t suffice to create a culture that merely suppresses racist views, but that instead openly challenges and exposes them. Because the danger of having a rampant streak of suppressed racism running through society is that at some point, things boil over, and people elect Donald Trump, and PoCs will indeed suffer the consequences. Racism suppressed isn’t racism eliminated. We’ve repainted the walls, but the rot is still in the stonework. > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Changing peoples hearts I don’t think happens from letting the racists run free. Which is precisely the opposite of what I’m trying to argue for. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Some version of cancel culture has been the norm for the right for decades, if not more. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > Which describes what “respectable society” has been like for most of recorded history, and it has been denounced by preachers and philosophers for just about as long. And again with the ‘it’s always been this way, so that’s the way it’ll always be’. With that attitude, no social change at all will ever be effected. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/423 "2020-07-29T15:37:03Z")
The fact that you think it must be simple and that my point is that it ought not be that simple, is where we can’t seem to reach an understanding. IMO. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/424 "2020-07-29T15:40:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “Cancel culture” is a tactic, nothing more. It can be used for good or for ill. I’m in favor of using it for good and against using it for ill. So closing a sandwich shop and making the employees redundant is good, in your opinion? And driving a Youtuber credited with deradicalising young men from the alt-right off twitter is a good thing? And bankrupting small businesses selling knitting supplies is a good thing? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/425 "2020-07-29T15:50:58Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > So closing a sandwich shop and making the employees redundant is good, in your opinion? Depends on the circumstances. Can be good, bad, or meh. > [@](#): > > And driving a Youtuber credited with deradicalising young men from the alt-right off twitter is a good thing? On the face of it, that sounds bad. But that was threats and harassment, not what I’m advocating for. Threats and harassment are always bad. > [@](#): > > And bankrupting small businesses selling knitting supplies is a good thing? Could be good, bad, or meh, depending on the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/426 "2020-07-29T15:56:31Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > I think—perhaps hope—that’s a false dichotomy: to get rid of racism once and for all, it won’t suffice to create a culture that merely suppresses racist views, but that instead openly challenges and exposes them. Isn’t the racism being openly challenged and exposed NOW? During the Trump era? But there are a lot of people who think the open racism, which is challenged and exposed, sounds pretty good. And the challenging and exposing is wrong. So I don’t actually believe it to be a false dichotomy at all - the Trump era is where racism is in the open and being openly challenged and exposed. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/427 "2020-07-29T16:05:14Z")
Let me ask you a question. Do you believe the world is a better place than 10 years ago? Do you think your tactics are working? Because I don’t. The right is stronger than ever, and the left has turned on itself. Both sides have apparently abandoned any kind of commitment to reality. How can you think this is a good thing? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/428 "2020-07-29T16:10:24Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Let me ask you a question. Do you believe the world is a better place than 10 years ago? Do you think your tactics are working? Because I don’t. The right is stronger than ever, and the left has turned on itself. Both sides have apparently abandoned any kind of commitment to reality. How can you think this is a good thing? This both sides crap is just nonsense. No, the left and liberals are not to blame for Trump and the racists. I don’t buy that the right is “stronger than ever”, at least not based on a single election (2016). 2018 took us back towards reality and decency, and hopefully 2020 will continue this. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/429 "2020-07-29T16:24:49Z")
“Could be good, bad or meh”, is a really lazy way to think, or a deliberate attempt to avoid acknowledging the problems on the left. Look, we all want to be rid of Trump. But let’s try to look beyond the immediate goal. Neither Biden nor the next generation of democrats will usher in a new era of comity. If we, as liberals, do not learn to pick our battles and the way we choose to fight them, we are going to be up to our necks in enemies and battles we cannot win. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/430 "2020-07-29T16:26:24Z")
Sounds fine to me. Sandwich shops aren’t going to be the battleground, and thus don’t require more than a tiny bit of consideration. EDIT: Also, this sounds like a tactical disagreement. That’s fine – let’s find the best tactics to beat Trump and co. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/431 "2020-07-29T16:35:33Z")
This reminds me so much of the debates about #MeToo – people (mostly men) worried it was going too far, and would backfire. That was and still is nonsense – finally we have a chance as a society to start treating sexual assault and rape (and generalized mistreatment of women) with the seriousness it deserves. Maybe some #MeToo advocates have made mistakes, but these are absolutely minuscule compared to what’s going on on the other side (the Trumpian treat-women-like-shit side). Liberals just can’t leave each other alone – everything has to be a fight with each other. #MeToo is right. The most strident opponents of Trump and co are right. The enemies are the obvious – Trump and co. That’s where the problem is, not with his critics and opponents. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/432 "2020-07-29T16:37:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Also, this sounds like a tactical disagreement. That’s fine – let’s find the best tactics to beat Trump and co. It’s not. It’s an ethical disagreement first, and a tactical one second. Ruining people’s lives and livelihoods because of a small ideological disagreement is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/433 "2020-07-29T16:39:06Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Ruining people’s lives and livelihoods because of a small ideological disagreement is wrong. I agree with this. But choosing a different sandwich isn’t ruining people’s lives and livelihoods. And Trump vs his opponents is not “a small ideological disagreement”. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/434 "2020-07-29T16:39:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This reminds me so much of the debates about #MeToo – people (mostly men) worried it was going too far, and would backfire. Uh, you don’t think it _has_ backfired? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/435 "2020-07-29T16:40:57Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Uh, you don’t think it _has_ backfired? Not even close. There’s been tons of pushback – but the choices were “push hard for women to be treated decently despite the pushback” or “stop pushing so hard”. There’s a lot more progress that needs to be made, but we’ve made a lot of progress in the last few years, and this was precisely because #MeToo advocates pushed so hard. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/436 "2020-07-29T16:44:24Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Isn’t the racism being openly challenged and exposed NOW? During the Trump era? But there are a lot of people who think the open racism, which is challenged and exposed, sounds pretty good > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The enemies are the obvious – Trump and co. That’s where the problem is, not with his critics and opponents. I agree that the enemies should be obvious but it doesn’t seem that people agree based on how they (haven’t) altered their rhetoric over the past 12 years as outright racism has been increasing in visibility. There are still a whole lot of people who blame what they perceive as lukewarm liberals for the lack of progress rather than the people who started to come out of the woodwork when Obama became president. Of course it’s possible that I’m mistaken, after all, as I’ve pointed out before, even a large change in attitudes is difficult to subjectively notice, since only hearing an argument half as much as before still leaves plenty of room to think it’s still as prevalent. It’s possible that there are a lot of people who are no longer waving their hand vaguely and saying “YOU are the problem! YOU need to reform your thoughts and your actions because YOU are the reason that there hasn’t been progress!”, but if there aren’t, there should be. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/437 "2020-07-29T16:48:21Z")
Agreed. I don’t understand people who think #MeToo has backfired. Encountering some pushback doesn’t negate some of the incredible gains made. A lot more people are going to be a lot more cognizant of sexual harassment in the work place. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/438 "2020-07-29T16:49:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This both sides crap is just nonsense. No, the left and liberals are not to blame for Trump and the racists. I don’t buy that the right is “stronger than ever”, at least not based on a single election (2016). 2018 took us back towards reality and decency, and hopefully 2020 will continue this. It’s not a single election. What about Brexit, Boris, the AfD and all the other right-wing parties in Europe? Have you seen what’s happening in Hungary and Poland? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I agree with this. But choosing a different sandwich isn’t ruining people’s lives and livelihoods. And Trump vs his opponents is not “a small ideological disagreement”. But that’s exactly what it did. Each snowflake contributed to the avalanche. And some of the other cases mentioned definitely were small ideological disagreements. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [#metoo] Not even close. A lot of men are shit-scared of this movement, and not because they are big sexual harassers. They think any innocent action could be misinterpreted by a paranoid or malicious woman and get them in huge trouble. It has definitely pushed a lot of them towards the right. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/439 "2020-07-29T16:53:28Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s not a single election. What about Brexit, Boris, the AfD and all the other right-wing parties in Europe? Have you seen what’s happening in Hungary and Poland? European politics is weird. But I’m talking about American politics, and what I’m saying accurately describes our politics. > [@](#): > > But that’s exactly what it did. Each snowflake contributed to the avalanche. And some of the other cases mentioned definitely were small ideological disagreements. Oh come on – are you saying that every time I choose a sandwich I have to consider which shop most needs my business to protect lives and livelihoods? Or can I please just make a decision based on whatever minor criteria I prefer for my sandwich needs? > [@](#): > > A lot of men are shit-scared of this movement, and not because they are big sexual harassers. They think any innocent action could be misinterpreted by a paranoid or malicious woman and get them in huge trouble. It has definitely pushed a lot of them towards the right. What a joke. Any men scared by #MeToo are either abusers, harassers, or so fucking ignorant of the reality of how women are mistreated that they probably routinely sexually harass women without even realizing it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/440 "2020-07-29T17:01:10Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > If I understand you correctly, I think that’s too relativist a notion for me. I can’t accept the idea that a racist, in wanting to bring about a racially segregated society, is acting ethically, as they’re working to bring about the world they want to live in. Rather, I believe there’s real moral progress, and acting ethically is working to further that moral progress; but if the notion that a stable democracy needs open debate is right, then a culture where 40% don’t feel able to participate in open debate is an obstacle to moral progress, so the ethical action would be to work against that. I think that is the problem that we sometimes have in understanding eachother. We tend to think that people are being unethical if the are working to bring about a world that we don’t want to live in. Problem is, if you come from that approach, then you are assuming that they are acting unethically, and if they just understood the consequences of their actions, then they would change their behavior. They do understand the consequences of their actions, that’s why they do them. So yes, a racist, in wanting to bring about a segregated society, is acting ethically, from their point of view. Morals are what we need people to do to keep society functioning. That’s the broader view, and what we are trying to change one way, and the racist the other. I’m not sure what we are talking about “open debate.” With who? Where at? We are debating right now, aren’t we, openly and freely. Where did people use to have public debates that they are being shut out of now? I’m not sure if I share the same concern that racists may be hesitant to speak out because they are worried about being thought poorly of by their peers. So, before this can go much further, I suppose we need to define some terms. What is open debate? Where does this happen? Who is not participating that used to, what is being stifled? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199.md?page=23)