# Identity, politics, and the in-fighting of the left **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2019, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199 "2019-11-09T10:42:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/441 "2020-07-29T17:05:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > European politics is weird. But I’m talking about American politics, and what I’m saying accurately describes our politics. American politics isn’t happening in a vacuum. It’s part of a worldwide pattern of rejection of the left. I could also have mentioned Brazil and the Philippines. Don’t kid yourself that Trump is a unique anomaly. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Oh come on – are you saying that every time I choose a sandwich I have to consider which shop most needs my business to protect lives and livelihoods? Or can I please just make a decision based on whatever minor criteria I prefer for my sandwich needs? You are the one who wants to bring politics into your sandwich buying. But what would you say to someone who just wants to hold a conversation without having to consider every accidental implication of their word choice and whether they are up to date on this week’s woke-approved terminology? Or whether they might be perpetrating microaggressions? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What a joke. Any men scared by #MeToo are either abusers, harassers, or so fucking ignorant of the reality of how women are mistreated that they probably routinely sexually harass women without even realizing it. Women are quite as capable of being unreasonable or malicious as men. I do think this is something that needed to come into the open (and was long overdue), but I don’t blame men at all for being nervous while we thrash out the new boundaries of acceptable behaviour. Telling any man who is worried about this that he must be an abuser, harasser or ‘fucking ignorant’ is both unfair and impolitic. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/442 "2020-07-29T17:11:03Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > American politics isn’t happening in a vacuum. It’s part of a worldwide pattern of rejection of the left. I could also have mentioned Brazil and the Philippines. Don’t kid yourself that Trump is a unique anomaly. There’s something going on, but I’m unconvinced that it has anything to do with cancel culture. In fact, I suspect it’s because the left and liberals have been so overwhelmingly successful culturally, that we’re seeing a last-gasp type backlash. I hope it’s a last gasp, but backlashes are inevitable when progress is made. Backlashes are a sign of progress, not a failure of progress. They still need to be overcome, obviously, but they’re inevitable when progress is made on difficult issues related to power and identity. > [@](#): > > You are the one who wants to bring politics into your sandwich buying. But what would you say to someone who just wants to hold a conversation without having to consider every accidental implication of their word choice and whether they are up to date on this week’s woke-approved terminology? Or whether they might be perpetrating microaggressions? I’d say suck it up – maybe someone might criticize you. It’s not the end of the world. Maybe you could learn something. Quit being such a snowflake and open your mind (I’d say to this hypothetical person). How do I know this? Because this is how I’ve learned. I don’t tread on eggshells – I speak plainly. Sometimes I screw up. But decent people explain to me where I screwed up, and I accept their criticism and learn from it. > [@](#): > > Women are quite as capable of being unreasonable or malicious as men. I do think this is something that needed to come into the open (and was long overdue), but I don’t blame men at all for being nervous while we thrash out the new boundaries of acceptable behaviour. Telling any man who is worried about this that he must be an abuser, harasser or ‘fucking ignorant’ is both unfair and impolitic. I do. Fuck 'em. Fuck harassers, fuck abusers, and fuck the men who don’t get it. This is long, long overdue. Like fucking centuries overdue. The decent ones will get it, as will the ones capable of learning. The rest won’t, and fuck 'em. And we’re (#MeToo) winning. Fuck 'em. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/443 "2020-07-29T17:13:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Oh come on – are you saying that every time I choose a sandwich I have to consider which shop most needs my business to protect lives and livelihoods? Or can I please just make a decision based on whatever minor criteria I prefer for my sandwich needs? You really are straining hard to mischaracterize the argument. Everybody WAS making the decision based on their minor criteria for sandwich needs. Until they heard about the sandwich shop owner’s politics. The sandwich didn’t change. But their sandwich needs did. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/444 "2020-07-29T17:14:53Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > You really are straining hard to mischaracterize the argument. Everybody WAS making the decision based on their minor criteria for sandwich needs. Until they heard about the sandwich shop owner’s politics. The sandwich didn’t change. But their sandwich needs did. So what? That’s okay. Some boycotts will catch on, and some won’t. If this one did, them’s the breaks. People buy sandwiches elsewhere, or buy the ingredients at the supermarket and make it themselves. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/445 "2020-07-29T17:16:58Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > But you choose, due to entirely subjective reasoning, to never patronize any Hardee’s restaurants for years following. It’s less a choice, and more that it happened at such a young age for myself that Hardee’s just turned into a blind spot for me. More PTSD than any sort of desire to hurt them. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > you were entirely willing to momentarily put that aside for a chicken sandwich because McDonalds is simply to crappy and annoying. Yep, like I said, people spoke positively about them enough that I gave them a try. If all I had ever heard were excuses and defenses, I never would have. That was my point in that story, was that if people want to do something about “cancel culture”, then they are better off accentuating the positives of what is under attack, rather than trying to defend or dismiss it. All of us are capricious, it’s part of human. Any idea that doesn’t take that into account will fail. The capriciousness of those anecdotes is precisely the reason that I shared them. Over in another thread about service workers, we have someone “cancelling” a particular fast food location because they got his order wrong. The check against this is that you have to convince a bunch or people to agree with you. If I say, “Mr. Jones of Mr. Jones’ Burgers looked at me funny, so no one should get his burgers anymore!” then how much following am I really going to get? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/446 "2020-07-29T17:27:02Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That was my point in that story, was that if people want to do something about “cancel culture”, then they are better off accentuating the positives of what is under attack, rather than trying to defend or dismiss it. Well, ain’t no way in hell I am going to convince @iiandyiiii of how excellent that sandwich was at Taylors. He’s already declared that he’d sooner buy the ingredients himself and make it at home. Me, I cut off my own nose to spite my face. Which is the lesson I’m trying to impart as part of a larger conversation. Not having much luck, plus somehow #MeToo is now in it to muddy the waters. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/447 "2020-07-29T17:27:57Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s not a single election. What about Brexit, Boris, the AfD and all the other right-wing parties in Europe? Have you seen what’s happening in Hungary and Poland? This is a bit of a silly charge ignoring the history of right-wing parties in Europe prior to 2016. Calls for Brexit have been happening for a while (Farage was elected to the European Parliament in 1999 after all) and Cameron gave in and issued a referendum. The AfD is new, but Austria had Jorg Haider at the Freedom Party at the turn of the century. The Le Pens have been active in France for a while and Jean-Marie entered the run-off in 2002. Berlusconi has been Prime Minister of Italy multiple times. And lets not forget Putin has been around in Russia for quite a long time. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/448 "2020-07-29T17:28:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There’s something going on, but I’m unconvinced that it has anything to do with cancel culture. In fact, I suspect it’s because the left and liberals have been so overwhelmingly successful culturally, that we’re seeing a last-gasp type backlash. I hope it’s a last gasp, but backlashes are inevitable when progress is made. Backlashes are a sign of progress, not a failure of progress. They still need to be overcome, obviously, but they’re inevitable when progress is made on difficult issues related to power and identity. It’s a backlash for sure. Sometimes backlashes are a sign that you have gone too far, or forgotten your roots, or whatever. I’m certainly not saying it’s all because of cancel culture, but it’s sure not helpful. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’d say suck it up – maybe someone might criticize you. It’s not the end of the world. Maybe you could learn something. Quit being such a snowflake and open your mind (I’d say to this hypothetical person). > > How do I know this? Because this is how I’ve learned. I don’t tread on eggshells – I speak plainly. Sometimes I screw up. But decent people explain to me where I screwed up, and I accept their criticism and learn from it. You’re exactly the kind of person who gets cancelled, then. Good thing you’re not on twitter. #metoo is a diversion so I’m going to abandon it. I don’t think you’re really listening anyway, so not sure there’s much point continuing to debate. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/449 "2020-07-29T17:29:56Z")
It’s been happening for a while, 2016 is just when it reached America. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/450 "2020-07-29T17:33:40Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > You’re exactly the kind of person who gets cancelled, then. Good thing you’re not on twitter. Or maybe I am? Maybe I speak my mind on social media pretty frequently, in fact (more Facebook than Twitter). And my identity is no secret to anyone who wants to spend 2 minutes to find it. Maybe “cancel culture” is really not all that scary, and we hear about a few people who are treated unfairly, but those are the outliers and that’s all there is. > [@](#): > > #metoo is a diversion so I’m going to abandon it. I don’t think you’re really listening anyway, so not sure there’s much point continuing to debate. I’m sorry, was I speaking my mind too plainly for you? Maybe I should censor myself so feelings don’t get hurt. God forbid we try to exchange ideas by plainly speaking our mind! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/451 "2020-07-29T17:34:22Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s been happening for a while, 2016 is just when it reached America. And I doubt cancel culture had any impact on anything in the late 1990s when a lot of these far-right folks got started. As for a backlash against liberal rule… that’s what happens in politics - you have a dominant ideology that in charge for a while that creates a massive backlash. Hell, you can see a left leaning backlash developing to tax cut, trickle down politics through greater desire for social democracy. The 1990s were a backlash to the Reagan/Thatcherite politics of the 80s - which led to a backlash against Clinton/Blairism. These pendulum shifts are a factor of politics and are nothing new. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/452 "2020-07-29T17:39:28Z")
There is a difference between associating and supporting. By patronizing a place, you are giving them your money. They are profiting off of you, and using those profits for something with which you may disagree.[quote=“QuickSilver, post:404, topic:843199”] - It was a _really_ good sandwich. I still think about it often. There is no non-Trump shop, and I’ve tried many, that compares. [/quote] In D.C.? Really? I need to move out there and open a sandwich shop then. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Nor can we always be sure we know everything there is to know about the person we are about to punish. Finally, and I hope not least importantly, it is okay to disagree about some things and still not act in a way that crosses into what, in some instances reaches into punishment for thought crimes. Here’s the thing, you keep saying the word punish, as if he is entitled to our patronage, and we are punishing him by denying it. It’s the other way around entirely. It is the responsibility of a business owner to attract patrons to their establishment, whether it be through great food or a great person. By patronizing his shop, you are supporting him. All you do by not shopping there is not shop there. There is no “punishment” there. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/453 "2020-07-29T17:41:37Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Well, ain’t no way in hell I am going to convince @iiandyiiii of how excellent that sandwich was at Taylors. He’s already declared that he’d sooner buy the ingredients himself and make it at home. Me, I cut off my own nose to spite my face. Which is the lesson I’m trying to impart as part of a larger conversation. Not having much luck, plus somehow #MeToo is now in it to muddy the waters. I’m pretty sure I’d been to the Taylor at Ballston years ago, and while it was fine, I didn’t find it spectacular or anything. The Broiler has the best cheesesteak in my area (Arlington), and I have no idea about their owner’s politics. And The Italian Store has by far the best Italian subs (also no idea as to their politics). Would I stop going to either one of those if I found out their owner supported Trump? I don’t know. Maybe I’d try and find out why, and what else they’d said. Maybe I’d rationalize it away and guiltily eat the sandwiches. Maybe I’d stop shopping there. Either way, it’s a meh decision. It doesn’t really matter in the scheme of things, and I feel no need to spend more than a minute or two thinking about it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/454 "2020-07-29T17:43:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m pretty sure I’d been to the Taylor at Ballston years ago, and while it was fine, I didn’t find it spectacular or anything. The Broiler has the best cheesesteak in my area (Arlington), and I have no idea about their owner’s politics. And The Italian Store has by far the best Italian subs (also no idea as to their politics). Okay. At this point I feel it bears pointing out that the sandwich shop is a _MacGuffin_. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/455 "2020-07-29T17:44:49Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Okay. At this point I feel it bears pointing out that the sandwich shop is a _MacGuffin_. MacGuffin’s bagels aren’t bad! But the whitefish is just the stuff you get in a container from any store. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/456 "2020-07-29T17:50:37Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Here’s the thing, you keep saying the word punish, as if he is entitled to our patronage, and we are punishing him by denying it. It’s the other way around entirely. It is the responsibility of a business owner to attract patrons to their establishment, whether it be through great food or a great person. By patronizing his shop, you are supporting him. > > All you do by not shopping there is not shop there. There is no “punishment” there. Well, I’d never eaten at Chick-fil-a when I heard they were anti-LGBTQ. I’ve never eaten there since. No, that’s a lie. I had find out what all the fuss was so I did once with my kids because were were hungry and they really wanted to try it. We tried it. It was okay. I was annoyed by being wished a “Blessed Day”. Never went back. I don’t feel I punished Chick-fil-a, because I was never a customer. I feel like did punish Taylors because we were very regular customers. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/457 "2020-07-29T17:51:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > MacGuffin’s bagels aren’t bad! But the whitefish is just the stuff you get in a container from any store. You’ve been a dad for like 8 minutes and already with the dad jokes! …groan ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/458 "2020-07-29T17:53:42Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > > [@k9bfriender](#): > > > > Here’s the thing, you keep saying the word punish, as if he is entitled to our patronage, and we are punishing him by denying it. It’s the other way around entirely. It is the responsibility of a business owner to attract patrons to their establishment, whether it be through great food or a great person. By patronizing his shop, you are supporting him. > > > > All you do by not shopping there is not shop there. There is no “punishment” there. > > Well, I’d never eaten at Chick-fil-a when I heard they were anti-LGBTQ. I’ve never eaten there since. > > No, that’s a lie. I had find out what all the fuss was so I did once with my kids because were were hungry and they really wanted to try it. We tried it. It was okay. I was annoyed by being wished a “Blessed Day”. Never went back. > > I don’t feel I punished Chick-fil-a, because I was never a customer. > > I feel like did punish Taylors because we were very regular customers. So what do you think would have happened if you really did like the chicken? Knowing their anti-LGBTQ stance and that they are explicitly Christian? If you decided not to go back would you be upset at yourself now? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/459 "2020-07-29T17:57:27Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > So what do you think would have happened if you really did like the chicken? Knowing their anti-LGBTQ stance and that they are explicitly Christian? If you decided not to go back would you be upset at yourself now? No. My best friend is gay and nobody tells me what kind of day to have. Fuck them. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/460 "2020-07-29T18:00:04Z")
Cancel Culture!! 😉 I did boycott CFA until they changed their policies (well their most egregious ones). Now it wasn’t a 100% better, but it was a good step. I figured boycotts that don’t end when a change occur aren’t really all the good in getting others to change their policies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199.md?page=24)