# Identity, politics, and the in-fighting of the left **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2019, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199 "2019-11-09T10:42:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/161 "2020-07-15T19:53:59Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Bari Weiss, one of the signers of the letter on justice and open debate, has resigned from the New York Times with a letter blasting them for creating an illiberal environment and allowing workplace harassment of anyone who disagrees with ‘woke’ thinking. > > [Resignation Letter — Bari Weiss](https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter) Funny, considering that Weiss rose to prominence for, among other things, trying to get critics of Israeli policy fired. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/162 "2020-07-15T20:48:21Z")
Interesting. [Bari Weiss resignation: Palestine advocates decry ‘hypocrisy’ of NYT columnist](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/bari-weiss-resignation-new-york-times-victim-cancel-culture) But the article ends with this: > [@](#): > > Palestinian-American author Nabeel Abraham said Weiss’s case appears to be an issue that is going on within the New York Times, not an infringement on her free speech. But he warned that the intolerance outlined in the letter is real. > > Abraham cited the recent [case](https://reason.com/2020/06/07/ucla-investigating-poli-sci-professor-for-reading-mlks-letter-from-birmingham-jail-showing-video-about-lynching/) of a University of California Los Angeles professor who was placed under investigation for reading out excerpts from a Martin Luther King letter that included the n-word. > > He said pro-Israel groups have tried to silence Palestinian voices by threatening their job security. > > “What I’m trying to say to the woke culture: You’re doing what the Zionists did, and still do to Palestinians,” Abraham told MEE. > > He defended the Harper’s letter, saying that while the criticism that the signatories are powerful and may have their own platforms may be valid, the central point on preserving free speech and pushing back against efforts to take people’s livelihoods over perceived mistakes still stands. > > Abraham added that tolerance of dissenting opinions is the true test for freedom of expression. > > “Everybody supports everyone that they agree with. That’s a no-brainer. What the problem is: you have to allow people you disagree with to also speak.” ---
**Author:** ![Delayed\_Reflex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/delayed_reflex/32/3172_2.png) [@Delayed\_Reflex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delayed_Reflex)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/163 "2020-07-15T21:17:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > Bari Weiss, one of the signers of the letter on justice and open debate, has resigned from the New York Times with a letter blasting them for creating an illiberal environment and allowing workplace harassment of anyone who disagrees with ‘woke’ thinking. > > > > [Resignation Letter — Bari Weiss](https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter) > > Funny, considering that Weiss rose to prominence for, among other things, trying to get critics of Israeli policy fired. I don’t know too much about Bari Weiss’ history - do you have any links to articles which show she advocated for the firing of people critical of Israeli policy? I have read that she tweeted a number of Erin Biba’s employers once which does appear pretty hypocritical, but [this article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2018/03/10/a-new-york-times-columnist-blamed-a-far-left-mob-for-her-woes-but-maybe-she-deserves-them/) indicated that she expressed regret for doing so and deleted the tweet, which seems to indicate that she recognized what she did was wrong. It could also be possible that her opposition to cancel culture is a more recent belief of hers (ie. perhaps it developed only after she became a target of cancel culture). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/164 "2020-07-15T22:12:05Z")
> [@Delayed\_Reflex](#): > > I don’t know too much about Bari Weiss’ history - do you have any links to articles which show she advocated for the firing of people critical of Israeli policy? I have read that she tweeted a number of Erin Biba’s employers once which does appear pretty hypocritical, but [this article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2018/03/10/a-new-york-times-columnist-blamed-a-far-left-mob-for-her-woes-but-maybe-she-deserves-them/) indicated that she expressed regret for doing so and deleted the tweet, which seems to indicate that she recognized what she did was wrong. It could also be possible that her opposition to cancel culture is a more recent belief of hers (ie. perhaps it developed only after she became a target of cancel culture). > **[NYT's Bari Weiss Falsely Denies Her Years of Attacks on the Academic Freedom...](https://theintercept.com/2018/03/08/the-nyts-bari-weiss-falsely-denies-her-years-of-attacks-on-the-academic-freedom-of-arab-scholars-who-criticize-israel/)** > > The New York Times columnist and editor spent years crusading for the type of censorship she claims to loathe. Instead of acknowledging this, she denies it. I haven’t checked all of the claims of this article, and I’m not particularly a big fan of Glenn Greenwald, but what I did check (about a quarter of the criticism in the article) appeared accurate to me. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/165 "2020-07-15T22:21:06Z")
[quote=“octopus, post:136, topic:843199, full:true”] That’s absolutely false. Letting so-called ‘peaceful protesters’ go on a crime spree is far worse than anything Trump did after the crime spree.[/quote] I am not sure where your “absolutely” came from, but there was no rioting occurring in Lafayette Park at the time that peaceful protestors, along with actual employees of St. John Church, were gassed and forced away from the church and out of its premises for Trump to make his little parade for a photo-op. The only crime was the action committed by Trump and Barr. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/166 "2020-07-15T22:45:52Z")
Personally I don’t really care whether Weiss is a hypocrite or not, I’m more concerned that society doesn’t continue down this path of forced conformity and blocking free speech. PS. Why aren’t you a fan of Greenwald? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/167 "2020-07-15T22:51:17Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > PS. Why aren’t you a fan of Greenwald? Largely because he’s been a contributor for white nationalist Tucker Carlson’s TV show for a few years, not to challenge his despicable views, but to support him, at least when he criticizes the Democratic party. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/168 "2020-07-15T23:07:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Largely because he’s been a contributor for white nationalist Tucker Carlson’s TV show for a few years, not to challenge his despicable views, but to support him, at least when he criticizes the Democratic party. Oh right. I have a right-wing friend who really despises Greenwald, so apparently he’s managed to piss off both sides. I gather he’s pretty keen on free speech, though. What does he criticise in the Democratic party? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2020, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/169 "2020-07-16T12:33:44Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > What does he criticise in the Democratic party? Mostly the investigations into Trump, IIRC, and especially the investigations for obstruction of justice. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/170 "2020-07-23T17:21:55Z")
> **[The "free speech debate" isn’t really about free speech](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/7/22/21325942/free-speech-harpers-letter-bari-weiss-andrew-sullivan)** > > The debate over "cancel culture" is about something real. But it’s not about free speech. Very good article making the argument that this whole big debate isn’t about free speech, but rather it’s about the social consequences of speech. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/171 "2020-07-23T19:18:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Very good article making the argument that this whole big debate isn’t about free speech, but rather it’s about the social consequences of speech. I read the article. It seems like the article concludes, not is so many words, that it’s a distinction without a difference. > Ideas on both the left and the right that were previously unthinkable are becoming mainstream with striking speed. New information environments have empowered some social groups and weakened others. > > Navigating this type of change is difficult. People and institutions are going to make mistakes, even when acting with the best of intentions; journalists and academics will be cruelly mobbed on social media and fired for bad reasons. > > **Such incidents do not, however, mean that the very idea of free expression is under assault.** (bolding mine) It kind of does when it gets unfairly marginalized and shouted down, as acknowledged in the previous sentence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/172 "2020-07-23T19:24:24Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I read the article. It seems like the article concludes, not is so many words, that it’s a distinction without a difference. > > > Ideas on both the left and the right that were previously unthinkable are becoming mainstream with striking speed. New information environments have empowered some social groups and weakened others. > > > > Navigating this type of change is difficult. People and institutions are going to make mistakes, even when acting with the best of intentions; journalists and academics will be cruelly mobbed on social media and fired for bad reasons. > > > > **Such incidents do not, however, mean that the very idea of free expression is under assault.** > > (bolding mine) > > It kind of does when it gets unfairly marginalized and shouted down, as acknowledged in the previous sentence. But this was already happening, and always has been. The difference is that instead of happening to mostly women and minorities who said something their mostly wealthy white male bosses didn’t like, now it’s also happening to some of those influential and wealthy white bosses. And they don’t like it, so they’re making a big stink about suddenly facing the same potential for consequences for their speech as the little people they’d been shitting on for decades and more. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/173 "2020-07-23T19:29:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But this was already happening, and always has been. The difference is that instead of happening to mostly women and minorities who said something their mostly wealthy white male bosses didn’t like, now it’s also happening to some of those influential and wealthy white bosses. And they don’t like it, so they’re making a big stink about suddenly facing the same potential for consequences for their speech as the little people they’d been shitting on for decades and more. Well, screw those assholes. Not every conversation is about them. When that letter was signed by multiple noted writers and philosophers of our time, they weren’t talking about them with respect to censored/cancelled speech. ETA: Even if they are in some cases, Maya Angelou didn’t say, “When you know better, turn the tables”. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/174 "2020-07-23T20:00:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But this was already happening, and always has been. The difference is that instead of happening to mostly women and minorities who said something their mostly wealthy white male bosses didn’t like, now it’s also happening to some of those influential and wealthy white bosses. And they don’t like it, so they’re making a big stink about suddenly facing the same potential for consequences for their speech as the little people they’d been shitting on for decades and more. I don’t think any decent person has a problem with this. Or with this (from the article): > “Fostering an environment in academia or newsrooms that is hostile to people’s given identities is not pro-free speech,” Gillian Branstetter, a founding member of the Transgender Journalists Association, tells me. “When you see Twitter [institute a ban on misgendering or deadnaming](https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/27/18113344/twitter-trans-user-hateful-content-misgendering-deadnaming-ban) in its policies … that actually expands free speech, because it [fosters] free communication.” And I think the article lays out a correct **model** for how social progress and free speech are not **in principle** in conflict at all: > It helps to think of this debate as taking place on a spectrum. Social justice advocates think the bands of acceptable opinion and arguments shouldn’t be narrowed, precisely, but rather pushed to the left — shifted to include formerly excluded voices from oppressed communities and to sideline voices that seek to continue their exclusion. But I think the above quote is completely disingenuous as a representation of what is **actually** happening on the intellectual left. The problem is precisely that those who adhere to critical theory dogma are very much narrowing the spectrum of “acceptable” debate. It’s ridiculous to suggest that thoughtful commentators like Bari Weiss and Andrew Sullivan should be ejected from the debate because they make people feel “unsafe”, that their commentary falls into the same category as that of misgendering bigots or racists who really should be just told to fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/175 "2020-07-23T20:14:36Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > It’s ridiculous to suggest that thoughtful commentators like Bari Weiss and Andrew Sullivan should be ejected from the debate because they make people feel “unsafe”, > that their commentary falls into the same category as that of misgendering bigots or racists who really should be just told to fuck off. But they weren’t “ejected from the debate”. They’re still part of “the debate”, at least if they want to be. They won’t have any problem getting eyes on their views. No one owes them a platform. I used to be a regular reader of Sullivan, but IMO he went downhill fast starting with the Kavanaugh thing. He either developed a massive blindspot or always had it and I just missed it. Good riddance to him from his New York column. And good riddance to Weiss from the NYT too – I’ve never thought she was an interesting writer. They aren’t owed columns just because they disagree with progressives. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/176 "2020-07-23T20:22:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But they weren’t “ejected from the debate”. They’re still part of “the debate”, at least if they want to be. They won’t have any problem getting eyes on their views. No one owes them a platform. I used to be a regular reader of Sullivan, but IMO he went downhill fast starting with the Kavanaugh thing. He either developed a massive blindspot or always had it and I just missed it. Good riddance to him from his New York column. And good riddance to Weiss from the NYT too – I’ve never thought she was an interesting writer. They aren’t owed columns just because they disagree with progressives. Neither Weiss nor Sullivan has been ejected because they lack readership and their respective papers have decided to cut them loose. They are not owed anything nor are they making any such claim. They both claim that they are leaving because of an inhospitable work atmosphere from their co-workers and lack of support from leadership. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/177 "2020-07-23T20:23:41Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Neither Weiss nor Sullivan has been ejected because they lack readership and their respective papers have decided to cut them loose. They are not owed anything nor are they making any such claim. They both claim that they are leaving because of an inhospitable work atmosphere from their co-workers and lack of support from leadership. So what? Good riddance to subpar writers. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/178 "2020-07-23T20:25:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But they weren’t “ejected from the debate”. Well, maybe you think that, but they clearly don’t, they feel that they were bullied out of their positions. And this is the moot point in the “free speech” debate, not any of the other uncontroversial aspects that you describe above. It has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with their views. The point is that they are both clearly people who are respectful and tolerant of their fellow human beings, there are not creating a hostile environment or making anyone “unsafe”. I’m less familiar with Bari Weiss, but Andrew Sullivan is an insightful and valuable commentator, even if I disagree with him at least half the time. The question at hand is not whether actual bigots should be ejected from the debate, or whether old white misogynists can be fired for their misogyny, it’s the extent to which the free exchange of ideas among decent human beings is being stifled. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/179 "2020-07-23T20:27:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So what? Good riddance to subpar writers. That is certainly one way to look at the issue. Another way to look at it is that as a reader you simply skip over their opinion columns or write letters to the editor with your own personal critique of their writing. Add your voice to the conversation, as it were. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199/180 "2020-07-23T20:28:14Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The question at hand is not whether actual bigots should be ejected from the debate, or whether old white misogynists can be fired for their misogyny, it’s the extent to which the free exchange of ideas among decent human beings is being stifled. It’s not. Or at least it’s not WRT Weiss and Sullivan. They can still write all they want. They aren’t obligated a platform, or even the support and friendship of their coworkers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/identity-politics-and-the-in-fighting-of-the-left/843199.md?page=10)