# IDF's alleged recording of Islamic Jihad, and questions of journalistic integrity and trust **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 18, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857 "2023-10-18T17:50:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/61 "2023-10-20T14:33:45Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Could you provide some cites for this, please, where they definitively claim that it was an Israeli airstrike?. Well, the only “reputable” source that’s brazen enough to keep the headline is Al Jazeera: > **[Israel-Hamas war updates: Hundreds killed in Gaza hospital ‘massacre’](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/16/israel-hamas-war-live-iran-warns-resistance-front-may-attack)** > > Here are the developments from the Israel-Hamas war on Tuesday, October 17, 2023. Eta: on preview, I copied this URL from a link where the title was different. Looks like Al Jazeera changed the title too. Most other papers have edited the titles already. And as I noted, sure, the papers will admit that the only source for the claim is Hamas - a couple paragraphs in. Or they might claim the source as “Gazan health officials” neglecting to mention that health officials in Gaza work for Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/62 "2023-10-20T14:39:09Z")
Al Jazeera are well-known for their bias regarding Israel. Please provide me a cite from a reputable Western news outlet that definitively stated that it was an Israeli airstrike. I eagerly await the cites that you’re so confident about. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/63 "2023-10-20T14:44:37Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Please provide me a cite from a reputable Western news outlet that definitively stated that it was an Israeli airstrike. As I noted a bunch of times, the articles were all changed. Come on man, this happened like 48 hours ago. We all remember the headlines. Are you really denying that Reuters and others ran with headlines that unambiguously said Israel was at fault with clarifications of “according to Gazan health officials” a few paragraphs in? _We were all right here_. Well, I’m sure some of the right-wing nuts creamed their pants when they saw the “mainstream media” make such a big mistake, I’m sure it’s been archived. Broken clock, twice a day, etc etc. If you’re really gonna pretend we don’t both remember a few days ago perfectly well, I can dig that up. But I’m gonna remember that first you made me defend Netanyahu by quoting egregious mistranslations of him that I had to correct, and now you’re gonna make me read through RW tweets - gross and grosser! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/64 "2023-10-20T14:47:51Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I eagerly await the cites that you’re so confident about. From wayback on 10/17, first headline from BBC: [https://web.archive.org/web/20231017185030/http://www.bbc.co.uk/](https://web.archive.org/web/20231017185030/http://www.bbc.co.uk/) > Hundreds killed in Israeli strike on Gaza hospital - Palestinian officials ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/65 "2023-10-20T14:48:50Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Please provide me a cite from a reputable Western news outlet that definitively stated that it was an Israeli airstrike. It was all over the news for quite a while. Most of them have since changed their headlines since there’s plenty of evidence now that it was definitely not an Israeli airstrike. But even BBC at one point pretty much just parroted Hamas’s claim: > ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/66 "2023-10-20T14:50:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > on man, this happened like 48 hours ago. We all remember the headlines. Are you really denying that Reuters and others ran with headlines that unambiguously said Israel was at fault with clarifications of “according to Gazan health officials” a few paragraphs in? _We were all right here_. Absolutely, I am. I don’t believe any reputable western media outlet would have definitively said it was an Israeli airstrike. Use Google custom search to help find the articles you’re looking for, as you’ll be able to specify the date range. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/67 "2023-10-20T14:51:06Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Absolutely, I am. I don’t believe any reputable western media outlet would have definitively said it was an Israeli airstrike. Perhaps you should read what has already been posted before making such a confident claim. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/68 "2023-10-20T14:51:35Z")
Are you being deliberately obtuse or admitting you don’t read the news? [![](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5a11b243d7bdcee10246b4ed/6db060ca-5d4c-4260-b297-7c6713a7d192/headline_montage.jpg?format=1500w) ](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5a11b243d7bdcee10246b4ed/6db060ca-5d4c-4260-b297-7c6713a7d192/headline_montage.jpg?format=1500w) ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/69 "2023-10-20T14:58:46Z")
> [@Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/456): > > > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > > > I eagerly await the cites that you’re so confident about. > > From wayback on 10/17, first headline from BBC: > > [https://web.archive.org/web/20231017185030/http://www.bbc.co.uk/](https://web.archive.org/web/20231017185030/http://www.bbc.co.uk/) > > > Hundreds killed in Israeli strike on Gaza hospital - Palestinian officials > [@Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/457): > > > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > > > Please provide me a cite from a reputable Western news outlet that definitively stated that it was an Israeli airstrike. > > It was all over the news for quite a while. Most of them have since changed their headlines since there’s plenty of evidence now that it was definitely not an Israeli airstrike. But even BBC at one point pretty much just parroted Hamas’s claim: > > [https://twitter.com/labourlewis/status/1714362911819215254](https://twitter.com/labourlewis/status/1714362911819215254) What the?! Both of you are using cites that say “…- Palestinian officials”. That means that the news organisations are saying it was an Israeli airstrike, according to Palestinian officials. That’s absolutely normal journalism. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/70 "2023-10-20T14:59:00Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Absolutely, I am. I don’t believe any reputable western media outlet would have definitively said it was an Israeli airstrike. See, now you’ve moved the goalposts. I never said “definitively”. I said that the headline is unambiguous and then later on they drop in “according to Gazan health officials”, neglecting to mention that Gazan health officials means Hamas. So yes, no reputable westen media outlet said “This was Israel, there’s proof!”. But a _bunch_ parroted Hamas claims and dropped in a quick “according to officials” disclaimer that A, no one read and B, does not specify that those officials _are fucking members of a terrorist organization_. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/71 "2023-10-20T15:00:52Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Both of you are using cites that say “…- Palestinian officials”. “Palestinian Officials” is Hamas. That’s not an opinion, that’s objective fact. Hamas is the governmental authority of Gaza. Even some of the articles in the second image I posted outright say Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/72 "2023-10-20T15:00:52Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > Are you being deliberately obtuse or admitting you don’t read the news? > > [https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5a11b243d7bdcee10246b4ed/6db060ca-5d4c-4260-b297-7c6713a7d192/headline\_montage.jpg?format=1500w](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5a11b243d7bdcee10246b4ed/6db060ca-5d4c-4260-b297-7c6713a7d192/headline_montage.jpg?format=1500w) Literally every headline says according to Palestinian officials, Gaza Health Ministry, Hamas etc I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. This is just nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/73 "2023-10-20T15:02:06Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Both of you are using cites that say “…- Palestinian officials”. I thought you were claiming that we should unskeptically trust reputable news outlets to use reputable sources, even when not identified? “Palestinian officials” sounds awfully authentic and objective, when the _only_ source for this completely unverified news headline was Hamas propaganda. An irresponsible unverified headline that sparked riots across the world. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/74 "2023-10-20T15:05:19Z")
Ohh i think I get it now. @Walken_After_Midnight thinks thinks that since all of the headlines and articles use the term “xxx state that”, then those publications are merely offering up their opinion instead of identifying them as a factual source. 🤪 ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/75 "2023-10-20T15:06:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > See, now you’ve moved the goalposts. I never said “definitively”. I said that the headline is unambiguous and then later on they drop in “according to Gazan health officials”, neglecting to mention that Gazan health officials means Hamas. Ok, here you go. They don’t need to use the word “definitively”. They just have to say it was an Israeli airstrike and not follow it with words such as “according to Palestinian officials”, or “according to Hamas” or “according to the Gazan Health Ministry” etc. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/76 "2023-10-20T15:11:46Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Literally every headline says according to Palestinian officials If the BBC and other reputable outlets think that “Palestinian officials” is a reasonable way to refer to unverified Hamas propaganda, why would anyone unskeptically assume that unidentified “Arab journalists” are unbiased sources? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/77 "2023-10-20T15:21:03Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > They don’t need to use the word “definitively”. They just have to say it was an Israeli airstrike and not follow it with words such as “according to Palestinian officials”, or “according to Hamas” or “according to the Gazan Health Ministry” etc. So there’s no problem whatsoever with these headlines in your eyes then? They aren’t misleading? Clearly you are a very distinguishing and critical consumer of media, but you _do_ understand that most people reading headlines are not? That the average consumer of headlines is not going to know that “Gazan Health Officials” are actually in fact Hamas? The fact is, **many** people - including some otherwise intelligent people - read these headlines and interpreted them in **exactly** the misleading way I am warning about. Unless you think these people are particularly stupid or are maliciously against Israel, what do you think explained these tweets, _other than_ the headlines being very misleading? > > > Dr. Omar Suleiman @omarsuleiman504 > > > The Associated Press @AP Either these headlines _ARE_ misleading, or Tlaib and Omar are particularly dense and couldn’t figure out the totally not misleading headline, or they weren’t confused at all and just saw an opportunity to attack Israel and took it. _My_ guess is the first one. And I think a _whole lot_ of people were equally misled. I find that tragic. Maybe you have a different read on the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/78 "2023-10-20T15:23:59Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > My point is that I feel the efforts in this thread to discredit the Channel 4 journalist and the two Arab journalists, as well as what they said, seem to go far beyond the normal or healthy level of skepticism that I would expect one to apply to a report from a reputable journalist from a reputable news organisation. > > Quite frankly, I find it extraordinary. It’s hilarious that you quote a dozen posts as evidence of some huge campaign to discredit a journalist - when every one of those posts was a response to _your_ dozens posts suggesting that we should _un_skeptically accept vague unidentified sources. If you post “2+2=5” a hundred times, it would hardly be “extraordinary” to get 100 responses saying otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/79 "2023-10-20T15:30:01Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > It’s hilarious that you quote a dozen posts as evidence of some huge campaign to discredit a journalist - when every one of those posts was a response to _your_ dozens posts suggesting that we should _un_skeptically accept unidentified sources. > > Extraordinary! Actually, what’s hilarious and extraordinary is how wrong you are. You just scored a massive own goal. This is what I wrote before any of those posts I quoted were written: > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > In the event, the report did not go into greater detail, only saying that “two independent Arab journalists” thought it was a fabrication for the reasons described in the tweet. This echoes what many on social media have said. Unless someone goes into greater persuasive detail, it will remain unproven, just as the IDF’s claim of the recording’s authenticity is unproven. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/80 "2023-10-20T15:32:53Z")
And yet, despite your philosophy of heroic skepticism, for some reason you felt the need to defend (in dozens of posts) your assertion that unidentified “Arab journalists” are a credible source just because the second-hand information came from a reputable Channel 4 journalist, and to defend highly misleading unverified news reports that came out immediately after the incident. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857.md?page=5)