# IDF's alleged recording of Islamic Jihad, and questions of journalistic integrity and trust **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 18, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857 "2023-10-18T17:50:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/101 "2023-10-20T22:34:39Z")
So, any follow-up on those Arabic language experts from the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/102 "2023-10-20T22:45:50Z")
Yes, there is actually. It’s from an Arab source, so I suspect many people here will automatically distrust it. Since it goes into detail, I won’t quote bits and pieces, but rather suggest reading the whole article, if interested. > **[Gaza hospital strike: Is Israeli audio proof disinformation?](https://www.newarab.com/news/gaza-hospital-strike-israeli-audio-proof-disinformation)** > > Experts have expressed doubt after Israel released a recording allegedly featuring two Hamas operatives discussing Palestinian Islamic Jihad's potential responsibility for the Al-Ahli Arab Baptist Hospital massacre. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/103 "2023-10-20T22:47:46Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > That’s why I wrote “possibly multiple times”. You would accept that the Archbishop of Canterbury, the principal leader of the Church of England, would count as the cite for one instance, or would you dispute that? Then there’s the Undersecretary of the Gaza Ministry of Health that would count as a cite for a possible second instance. I wasn’t making a larger point, I was just curious about the fanciful narrative of Israel allegedly using artillery shells to hit the hospital as a “warning” until I remembered who that claim was coming from. Eta: I’m pretty sure Justin Welby isn’t in Gaza at the moment? So presumably his statement is based on what _someone_ told him. Not that I’m doubting his info, but as the incident under discussion shows, we should be careful with our sources. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/104 "2023-10-20T22:58:21Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Eta: I’m pretty sure Justin Welby isn’t in Gaza at the moment? So presumably his statement is based on what _someone_ told him. Not that I’m doubting his info, but as the incident under discussion shows, we should be careful with our sources. The hospital was founded by the Church Mission Society of the Church of England and is run by the Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East, which is a province of the Anglican Communion. The Archbishop of Canterbury is therefore the nominal head of the church. Do you believe that the Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East is lying to the Archbishop of Canterbury to make Israel look bad? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/105 "2023-10-20T23:01:33Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Since it goes into detail, I won’t quote bits and pieces, but rather suggest reading the whole article, if interested. > > [Gaza hospital strike: Is Israeli audio proof disinformation?](https://www.newarab.com/news/gaza-hospital-strike-israeli-audio-proof-disinformation) Forgive me, but I find that highly unconvincing. What the people in the article seem to be claiming is that because the callers don’t sound like “stereotypical” Hamas operatives, it can’t be real. What they’re forgetting, or ignoring, is that Hamas controls the Gazan government, and as such employs tens of thousands of Gazans in their armed forces, police, emergency services, government and so on. Is it such a surprise that not every one of them is deeply religious, paranoid, from the same social background and uses the same slang? As smoking guns go, that’s not very impressive. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/106 "2023-10-20T23:04:46Z")
Fair enough, that is your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/107 "2023-10-20T23:09:22Z")
It’s less persuasive than i would have guessed based on your initial description. Buy it does reduce the credibility of the report. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/108 "2023-10-20T23:09:38Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > The hospital was founded by the Church Mission Society of the Church of England and is run by the Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East, which is a province of the Anglican Communion. The Archbishop of Canterbury is therefore the nominal head of the church. 👍 > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Do you believe that the Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East is lying to the Archbishop of Canterbury to make Israel look bad? Nope! I’m just pointing out how many layers of separation there are between us and the information provided. Not to mention that Welby presumably didn’t speak to “the Church”, he spoke to a person - we don’t know who, unless there is more info elsewhere - who presumably told him, “An Israeli air strike bear the church caused damage to the 2nd floor and injured some people”. Did _this guy_, whoever he is, witness this happen? How does he know the explosion was caused by an Israeli airstrike? Presumably, someone - maybe Gazan health officials - told him that this was the source of the bomb? Again, none of this is to say that the story isn’t true. I’m just pointing out that we need to understand what information comes from where, and in what form. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/109 "2023-10-20T23:14:03Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Fair enough, that is your opinion. In addition to what Alessan pointed out, the experts quoted actually disagree with each other: > [@](#): > > “The dialect sounds dead foreign to Gaza itself,” said Muhammad Shehada, communications chief at Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor. > > “If you assume [a] benefit of [the] doubt, it could be a dialect from one of these affluent areas in Gaza – and that’s even not possible – but it would not be Hamas members.” > [@](#): > > Another Gazan journalist told _The New Arab_ the Israelis have a unit specialised in understanding varieties of Palestinian Arabic. > > While he said there were no significant differences between the dialect of Gaza and the speech featured in the alleged intercepted call, he did not consider it a pure representation of the local language. What’s my takeaway? That I am not qualified to judge the authenticity nor the quality of translation of a tape in a language that I do not speak, and putting this recording completely aside I think the evidence that Israel did not bomb the hospital courtyard is pretty dang solid. So I don’t really place much stock in this recording one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/110 "2023-10-20T23:26:56Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Forgive me, but I find that highly unconvincing. What the people in the article seem to be claiming is that because the callers don’t sound like “stereotypical” Hamas operatives, it can’t be real. I agree. The notion that it might have been an accent from Gaza, but not one that anyone in Hamas would have seemed like a stretch to me. And it lacked the “deeply religious tone” that Hamas members apparently never deviate from. Referring to the Islamic Jihad by its full name. Seemed like weak sauce. I also twitched when I read this (my emphasis): > [@](#): > > An audio recording released by [Israel](https://www.newarab.com/news/what-do-we-know-about-strike-gazas-baptist-hospital) in a bid to deflect responsibility for the massacre at [Gaza](https://www.newarab.com/video/and-after-israeli-attack-al-ahli-hospital)’s Baptist Hospital has been met with incredulity by experts, **as Tel Aviv ramps up what experts say are typical propaganda and disinformation tactics used by the Israeli government in wartime.** This doesn’t read to me like impartial journalism. Israel is ramping up propaganda and disinformation, eh? And it’s the typical kind according to experts, no less. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/111 "2023-10-20T23:35:45Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > This doesn’t read to me like impartial journalism. Israel is ramping up propaganda and disinformation, eh? And it’s the typical kind according to experts, no less. Not Israel - “Tel Aviv”, a city that is _not_ the seat of the Israeli government. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2023, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/112 "2023-10-20T23:48:07Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > > [@Loach](#): > > > > And you know her (or the actual journalist) ability to gauge someone’s language skill? I have no reason to doubt the report. Someone said it didn’t sound right. > > What? > > Are you saying that if a non-English speaker asked you to listen to an audio recording in which the speakers were speaking in English you wouldn’t be able to provide them with any insight into “language, accent, dialect, syntax and tone”? > > That you wouldn’t be able to tell if the words used didn’t make sense or were arranged in a way that didn’t form sentences? You wouldn’t be able to tell the difference a between the accent of one English-speaking nation from another or a regional American accent? That if, say, a couple of Frenchmen made a recording pretending to be Texans the average American wouldn’t be able to tell? > > That makes no logical sense to me. I speak English. I am not an expert in all dialects or accents. This video is in English. Care to comment on its accuracy in syntax and grammar? I can’t. Do you think Arabic is spoken the same way in all parts of the world? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/0YfRbNipdOg/maxresdefault.jpg "Limmy's Show: Dee Dee: Yoker") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YfRbNipdOg) ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2023, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/113 "2023-10-21T00:00:41Z")
I believe the idea is that if you were to present that to any fluent English speaker they could immediately tell you that the speaker is from Britain somewhere. And English speakers from Britain could tell you which regional accent the speaker had, and people from that region could tell you whether the accent is accurate and the whether the idiom is authentic. You don’t need to be a linguistic expert, just a native speaker. For example, if you got someone from New Zealand to try to pretend to be from rural Saskatchewan, it’s extremely unlikely that I’d not be able to pick them out as a fake almost instantly based on their speech. Even if you let them binge watch Corner Gas before the attempt. I am not a linguistic expert. I have no opinion on the reports regarding the alleged recording of Hamas operatives other than that I’m taking all of them with a huge grain of salt. I will however add that picking out accents from the low quality audio typical of intercepts like this is not at all like picking out accents from professionally produced audio tracks, or from hearing someone speak in person. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2023, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/114 "2023-10-21T00:08:56Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > For example, if you got someone from New Zealand to try to pretend to be from rural Saskatchewan, it’s extremely unlikely that I’d not be able to pick them out as a fake almost instantly based on their speech. Even if you let them binge watch Corner Gas before the attempt. I am not a linguistic expert. Yes, but if they presented to you someone from a particular section of rural Saskatchewan, would you dismiss it because, sure it may be a rural Saskatchewan accent, but not from that particular section? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2023, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/115 "2023-10-21T00:10:23Z")
What would you like to know, exactly? I could tell within a few seconds that it was a Glaswegian working-class accent. If he was talking about “putting another shrimp on the barbie, mate”, I would instantly know something wasn’t right. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2023, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/116 "2023-10-21T00:20:10Z")
There is little to no regional variation in accent across most of western Canada, so no. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2023, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/117 "2023-10-21T00:23:19Z")
Right, and that’s what I raised an eyebrow over in the article, the one expert who conceded it could have been a Gazan accent, but not one someone in Hamas would have. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2023, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/118 "2023-10-21T00:27:17Z")
Plus, the same article quotes two supposed experts, and they disagree about whether the accent is Gazan or not. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2023, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/119 "2023-10-21T00:35:43Z")
I know nothing about Palestinian Arabic accents and how much regional diversity there might be. You might not be able to tell Albertans from Manitobans apart by accent, but you can tell people from different parts of New York City apart by accent. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2023, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857/120 "2023-10-21T00:49:34Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > You might not be able to tell Albertans from Manitobans apart by accent, but you can tell people from different parts of New York City apart by accent. My analogy would have been stronger if I had said, “Could you definitely dismiss someone presented as a farmer from rural Saskatchewan because clearly they had an accent only a rich person from rural Saskatchewan would have?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idfs-alleged-recording-of-islamic-jihad-and-questions-of-journalistic-integrity-and-trust/991857.md?page=7)