# Idioms like "Your dog needs trained". Who, what, where, etc.? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 17, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170 "2009-10-17T22:37:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/21 "2009-10-18T18:30:04Z")
> [@flano1](#): > > Hearing it said is far different from reading it. Right- I lived for a while in Pittsburgh, where it is common, and even catch myself saying it. Spoken, it seems normal. But so does the word “ain’t”. It is incorrect in formal written use. ---
**Author:** ![Jerseyman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jerseyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerseyman)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/22 "2009-10-18T18:59:46Z")
Methinks thou hast it! (If we’re going to talk dialect). It looks to me like a misreading of the plural of the noun _need_ as the third of the verb _need_. Words become so overused in advertising that they lose any meaning. ‘Solutions’ is a common one: I’ve even seen places that offer _Sandwich Solutions_ instead of just a variety of Sandwiches. ‘Needs’ has been a slightly earlier one. It started from a supermarket basis of _All your needs supplied here_. That obviously makes ‘needs’ a noun. Then come more specialised terms like _All your motoring needs catered for_. This again makes ‘motoring’ an obvious qualification on ‘needs’ - not just any old needs, _motoring_ needs. But look again: it’s actually ambiguous in a way most English speakers would not think to use there, it just could be read _All [that] your motoring {noun} needs {verb}_. English doesn’t like possessives. They are the last of the old formal grammar and we are moving from the kind of language that says _The sun’s heat_ or _Calor solis_ to one that says _The heat of the sun_ and _Le chaleur du solei_. One way of doing that is to return to a very ancient form that puts turns the possessing noun into a qualifier. Maybe 50 years ago it would be common enough to advertise _All you pet’s needs supplied_. Today, instead of _All the needs of your pet supplied_ we will see _All your pet needs supplied_. We have either turned ‘pet’ into a qualifying adjective or we have invented a compound _pet-needs_ that is still written as two words. And it has become ambiguous in the process. (And that is ambiguous too, as is often used as a joke: just which of its processes has it become ambiguous in and what are they?) So now we have _All your dog needs supplied_ which could mean either _All your dog-needs supplied_ which amounts to _All needs supplied for your dog_ or _All [that] your-dog needs - supplied_ where ‘needs’ has become a verb. It’s a small (and ignorant and redundant) step from there to _All your dog needs trained_ by comparison with _Your dog needs training_ and _Your dog needs to be trained_. These last two constitute a war between North and South England. Strictly speaking, forms like _Training_ were originally nouns and it still comes through in expression like _The going was rough_. Again, you could change that to _It was rough going_ and then it is not clear whether ‘going’ is really a noun or some kind of verb - in _It was hard making that_, ‘making’ is a verb but in _The making of that was hard_ it is a noun. _This needs to be done_ (Southern) and _This needs doing_ (Northern) are both accepted as ‘standard’. That is not true in other cases. _I want this done_ is Southern standard but Northerners will usually say _I want this doing_. Just occasionally it can be ambiguous: if somebody says _I want this washing_ do they mean they want it washed or they want their washing back rather than have it washed? Especially where ~ing words retain use as nouns does \*She wanted the cottage painting \* mean that _she wanted her cottage to be repainted_ or that _she wanted the artwork featuring rural accomodation_? This _Dog needs trained_ looks like a new dialect form developing for the same sort of thing. It’s overlapping the two very close ideas of _The room needs to be cleaned_ and _I want the room cleaned_ via the used of ‘needs’ in the sense of ‘requirements’ in other related contexts. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/23 "2009-10-18T19:58:22Z")
Here’s a [pretty good article](http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2007/11/11/lawn_needs_cut/) on the construction from the Boston Globe. It is particularly associated with Pittsburgh, but it is attested in informal writing throughout the country (the author finds usage of it in California, Idaho, and Florida, among other places). I’ve heard it in speech in Central Illinois, including by college-educated people (one of whom was Phi Beta Kappa). This latter fact probably should scotch the idea that it is an uneducated form–although I would be surprised to see it in formal, edited writing (and would perhaps consider it inappropriate in that context). I would pay special attention to the remarks by Stanford linguist Arnld Zwicky (of [Language Log](http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/) fame) in the concluding paragraphs of the article. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/24 "2009-10-18T20:03:31Z")
I don’t think that’s it at all. “Car needs” would be things like a tire gauge, oil changes, and maybe some plush upholstery for the seats. But when I say “the car needs washed”, I’m not saying to wash all the accessories for the car; I’m saying to wash the car itself. EDIT: That was in reply to **Jerseyman** , not **Kimmy**. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/25 "2009-10-18T21:16:31Z")
This is very interesting. I have relatives in the Pittsburgh area, and used to visit there every few years as a kid. While I remember the “you-uns” construct, I can’t ever remember seeing or hearing what’s being discussed in this thread. Guess I just wasn’t paying much attention. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/26 "2009-10-18T21:35:00Z")
> [@](#): > > **All your base are belong to us.** _To be_, or not _to be_, that is the question. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/27 "2009-10-18T21:46:55Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > _To be_, or not _to be_, that is the question. I guess in Pittsburgh, that part of the play reads: Or not, that is the question. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/28 "2009-10-18T22:16:24Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > … I’ve heard it in speech in Central Illinois, including by college-educated people (one of whom was Phi Beta Kappa). … Well I knew it was Pittsburghese from my wife, who would tell the story of her first year college roommate and friend who spoke that way, and when my wife made of her always responded with “Yeah, and which one of us placed out of Freshman English?” My wife is my source that it comes from the German influence. Anyone with any more definitive source for its origins? Not that I don’t trust my wife … ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/29 "2009-10-18T22:33:36Z")
> [@Xylo](#): > > The previous thread suggested it originated as a Scots/Irish thing, which rings true for me. My Scottish girlfriend does it all the time, as did an Irish former colleague. I’m mystified by this. I’ve lived in Ireland all my life, and never once heard an Irish person use this form. “This needs doing” is normal, but “this needs done” is completely strange to me. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/30 "2009-10-18T22:42:46Z")
I think \*\*jerseyman \*\*has missed the point. This idiom is used with all direct verbs, not merely “need”. ---
**Author:** ![Xylo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/53a042/32.png) [@Xylo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xylo)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/31 "2009-10-18T23:34:37Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > I’m mystified by this. I’ve lived in Ireland all my life, and never once heard an Irish person use this form. “This needs doing” is normal, but “this needs done” is completely strange to me. She’s from Belfast, if that makes any difference. Otherwise, I don’t know what to tell you. She did it _constantly_. “This needs fixed”, “my clothes need cleaned”, etc. I called her on it a couple of times but she didn’t think there was anything unusual about it. It’s a transatlantic phenomenon, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/32 "2009-10-19T00:29:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > This is very interesting. I have relatives in the Pittsburgh area, and used to visit there every few years as a kid. While I remember the “you-uns” construct, I can’t ever remember seeing or hearing what’s being discussed in this thread. Guess I just wasn’t paying much attention. Ahem, that’s _yinz_. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/33 "2009-10-19T01:02:00Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Ahem, that’s _yinz_. Strangely, perhaps, though the “X needs blanked” construction is prevalent here, I rarely hear “yinz.” “You all” or “all you/ya” would be much more common. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/34 "2009-10-19T02:11:22Z")
If naming it were left to me, I’d refer to this construction as “abbreviated infinitive.” ---
**Author:** ![Uncertain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Uncertain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncertain)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/35 "2009-10-19T02:38:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’d recommend speakers from the area to be careful using it outside of the home/immediate vicinity. Can one recommend somebody to do something, or only recommend _that_ somebody _does_ something (or _advise_ somebody to do something)? > [@](#): > > The ears of the educated can only take so much. Indeed.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/36 "2009-10-19T07:00:14Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > I’m mystified by this. I’ve lived in Ireland all my life, and never once heard an Irish person use this form. “This needs doing” is normal, but “this needs done” is completely strange to me. Really? I’m surprised at that, I hear it often. As **Xylo** suggests it does seem to be somewhat more common in the North but I hear it from southerners sometimes too. ---
**Author:** ![casual\_lurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/898d66/32.png) [@casual\_lurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casual_lurker)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/37 "2009-10-19T07:36:23Z")
Lived in New England for 25 years, and never heard this kind of phrase. Moved to Maryland (in the DC area) for a year, and heard this at least once a week. It definitely sounds very odd to an outsider. I asked some people why they were saying it that way, and they just looked at me funny. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/38 "2009-10-19T14:07:26Z")
Leave it to people to create a third form when there are already two acceptable ones. a) The car needs “to be” washed. b) The car needs “washing”. Why on Earth would a third option even be conceived (except through ignorance?) ---
**Author:** ![Vorpal\_Blade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/9de0a6/32.png) [@Vorpal\_Blade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vorpal_Blade)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/39 "2009-10-19T16:33:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Actually, that’s “redd up”. “Rett” up. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170/40 "2009-10-19T17:22:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Ahem, that’s yinz. While the second-person-plural pronoun is pronounced (approximately) “yinz”, it’s spelled “you’uns”, a contraction of “you ones”. And in my experience, it’s more common in the rural areas of western PA than in Pittsburgh itself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idioms-like-your-dog-needs-trained-who-what-where-etc/514170.md?page=3)