# Idiot fuckin' cops **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 10, 2005, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702 "2005-06-10T05:03:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/21 "2005-06-10T17:53:41Z")
> [@](#): > > What you’re missing here Unc is that the people who end up running from the police are more dangerous than they have ever been, thus the so-called ‘militarization’ of police departments becomes not only necessary, but prudent. Sure, they’re more dangerous—more dangerous while they’re running. Plus, the cops themselves are more dangerous, too, while they’re pursuing. The perps are running, the cops are pursuing; the perps are running harder and faster, the cops a pursuing more determinedly and doggedly. They become the goad. In the vast majority (at least as I seem to remember from the few Cops & Robber shows I’ve seen on television in the past few years – not that that is anything but anecdotal) of the chases, the cops are pursuing a guy, not for an armed robbery, or rape, or some other violent act, but because he refused to pull over for lousy drug or traffic violation. Most of the people being pursued don’t have a history of violence, nor is the crime they’re being chased for anything particularly serious. Hell, in a recent incident here in Toledo (May 2005), the cops put aloft their helicopter to pursue a couple teenagers who swiped a car to take a joyride – on the word of a 10 year old that that’s what had happened. Seems like a far greater expenditure of resources than the situation would call for. Plus it seems far more likely to that it would actually create a dangerous situation than would typically be the case. > [@](#): > > The facts are that police departments are created using a paramilitary model, and in reality the more like a military unit a police department becomes, the better it is for the citizens. I **strongly** disagree and can argue the same set of facts around the same circle in the opposite direction with equal logic. I believe it is possible to instill discipline and professionalism without resorting to supplying cops with a large numbers of automatic weapons, armored vehicles, pursuit helicopters, explosives, etc. What happens is that when these types of items are supplied to the cops, and admittedly done so out of genuine concern for public safety, is that in order to continue providing justification of the purchase of these items, the personnel needed to man them, and the budgets required to keep them operational and available, the cops will just find more reasons to use them. Thus, a self-feeding circle is established. One that can be particularly violent and is escalated mutually by the law enforcement agency and the criminals. Further, giving patrol cops more power to use their judgment in a given set of circumstances, rather than responding by rote as the line grunt in a military organization is trained to do, should help a police organization as a whole accomplish their mission more effectively. Remember, that mission, as is, or was, painted on the sides of so many police cruisers, is “To Protect & Serve.” This is in direct conflict with the military’s role which is “Seek & Destroy.” I deny that transforming a public service agency into a militaristic endeavor is in the public’s best interest. > [@](#): > > The use-of-force continuum has changed in the favor of the citizen in the last 30 years. There are fewer backroom police beatings than there were say, in 1969. Mebbe so, but there seem to be more full-scale assaults with more dire consequences than used to be, too. Plus, I think you might be neglecting the role racism played in the unlawful actions of the previous generations of cops. I agree entirely that the more professional a police agency can be made to be, the better able they’ll be to protect society. But I don’t think militarization makes them more professional. If anything, it moves them away from the “compassionate advocate” end of the spectrum and towards the “armed opposition.” ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/22 "2005-06-10T18:04:56Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > A fifteen car chase may seem excessive, but if you’ll recall the West Hollywood bank robbery where 2 armored thugs out gunned several DOZEN police officers, and given the state of our gun culture, 15 police officers participating in a chase is more over-insurance than overkill. Further, consider the mind of the person who is running away; the more desperate he or she becomes, the more likely he or she is to be the kind of dangerous that the officers in West Hollywood faced. Even if they’re unarmed. To refresh people’s memories, let me provide a [link](http://www.freqofnature.com/archives/2002_02_24_newsarchives.html) to that incident. 120 rounds fired is nothing compared to the arsenal the cops (and public) were up against just 8 years ago. The way I see it, a more passive police force is just as dangerous as an overly aggressive police force…and the middle ground is some phantom gray area that moves around back and forth, virtually day by day, according to the public’s/criminal’s/governmental agency’s needs and wants that places an additional burden on an [undertrained and underbudgeted sheriff’s department.](http://www.cbs2.com/) (Click on video titled “L.A. County Sheriff Announces New Shooting Policy.”) On the radio, I heard that Baca will try to immobolize the pursuit vehicle, back off and then call in a sharpshooter to use 1 bullet instead of 120. I guess it’s a step in the right direction, as long as the criminal stays put and waits for the sharpshooter to come and resolve “the issue”. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/23 "2005-06-10T18:09:31Z")
> [@](#): > > **Tranquilis** said: > You’re assuming that it’s ego, and that the officers have perfect knowledge, catsix. We both know that the second isn’t true, and I really, really doubt that many officers want to put their lives at risk for the ego boost. I’m saying that they and their Camaro intercepter put **my life** at unnecessary risk. And they do it for stupid, stupid shit like seeing a joint in someone’s car. It’s not as if they’re pursuing an axe weilding murderer with someone’s kid in the trunk every time they go on one of these high-speed chases. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/24 "2005-06-10T18:13:12Z")
No, but how do they tell the joint smokers from the axe killers? When someone runs, they pretty much have to assume the worst, until such time as they know better. Unless you’re willing to let them off the hook for letting some very serious criminals get away? And, really, it’s the criminal that runs that puts your life at risk - If they don’t run, there’s no pursuit. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/25 "2005-06-10T18:16:03Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > When someone runs, they pretty much have to assume the worst, until such time as they know better. No, they don’t. > [@](#): > > Unless you’re willing to let them off the hook for letting some very serious criminals get away? Perfectly willing. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/26 "2005-06-10T18:27:59Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > No, they don’t. Seeing as you’re willing to let any criminal run for it, and go their merry way, that’s fine for _you._ I _really_ do not want to live in a world run acording to your ideas. I want serious criminals caught. That means if someone is so desperate that they will run from the law, I want the police to assume that the runner has a _reason_ for such desperation, and act accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/27 "2005-06-10T18:33:13Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > Seeing as you’re willing to let any criminal run for it, and go their merry way, that’s fine for _you._ I _really_ do not want to live in a world run acording to your ideas. I want serious criminals caught. Cute false dichotomy: you can catch serious criminals _without_ going to the great lengths (helicopters, 15-car police chases, high-speed car chases, etc.) that people are objecting to. It’s not a between letting criminals go free or engaging them in a reckless persuit. I’d like the cops to make a reasonable effort to chase, but if it starts getting out of hand I’d just as soon let him flee and then, if it’s determined that he really is a bad guy, have a detective track him down afterwards. I doubt most people who run from the cops have the intelligence and resources to effectively go into hiding. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/28 "2005-06-10T18:35:09Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > How many innocent bystanders are injured or killed every year because of a high-speed police chase? This just happened to a good friend of mine @ the beginning of the Memorial Day weekend: [Fatal crash in cemetery](http://www.newsday.com/news/printedition/longisland/ny-lifata274277907may27,0,6518128.story?coll=ny-linews-print) > [@](#): > > A man speeding away from police officers died after he lost control of his car and came to rest in a Pinelawn cemetery, damaging several headstones, Suffolk police said yesterday…When an officer motioned for Davis to pull over, he sped away. He then appeared to lose control of the car while police pursued him and crashed into an oncoming 2004 Hyundai, Maher said. > > The impact sent the Suzuki into the air, ejecting Davis and hurtling him over the fence of the Long Island National Cemetery, Maher said. > > Davis was pronounced dead at the cemetery. The car left six headstones chipped or cracked, and cemetery workers had to remove 10 more so police could tow the car, said Nadine Bruh-Schiffer, deputy director of the New York National Cemetery Complex. > > The driver of the Hyundai, Michael Monte, 31, of West Babylon, suffered cuts to his head and knees… That cemetery fence the fleeing driver was ‘hurtled over’ is 6’ tall. The friend who was hit head on, Michael Monte, is pretty fucked up. He can’t walk yet (cuts to his…knees, my ass) :dubious: He’s lucky he lived - and has a great story to tell. Also on the upside, I’m finally gonna get that $800 he’s owed me since last Spring. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/29 "2005-06-10T18:51:02Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > You mean “Cop Overkill”? Never heard of it. “Use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension of the Blues Brothers has been approved.” ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/30 "2005-06-10T18:51:09Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Cute false dichotomy: you can catch serious criminals _without_ going to the great lengths (helicopters, 15-car police chases, high-speed car chases, etc.) that people are objecting to. It’s not a between letting criminals go free or engaging them in a reckless persuit. > > I’d like the cops to make a reasonable effort to chase, but if it starts getting out of hand I’d just as soon let him flee and then, if it’s determined that he really is a bad guy, have a detective track him down afterwards. I doubt most people who run from the cops have the intelligence and resources to effectively go into hiding. One - It’s not a false dichotomy. Many serious criminals are caught _because_ they chose to flee, when the law did not otherwise know they were in the area. Their flight alerted the police to their presence. Two - You stated _flatly_ that you were willing to see them go. _Now_ you come back with a more nuanced and thoughtful response. If you’d bothered with the more nuanced answer the first time, you’d have gotten a different response from me. Mind you, you’re still make some very broad assumptions. Those few criminals that have managed to elude police can, and have, managed to vanish into the woodwork. Cut back on pursuit, and you’ll see a lot more of that happening, I predict with confidence. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/31 "2005-06-10T18:56:58Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > Two - You stated _flatly_ that you were willing to see them go. _Now_ you come back with a more nuanced and thoughtful response. I said that in the context of a discussion about violent chases, helicopters, 15-car chases, etc… I assumed a reasonable person would understand that I was talking about those situations, and that I wasn’t advocating cops to just wave “buh-bye” to people who run red lights when they don’t immediately pull over, or to react to a fleeing murderer by saying “Aw shucks, he’s running away. Well, that’s it. Let’s just cancel the entire investigation. He’ll probably die of old age in a few decades anyways.” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/32 "2005-06-10T18:58:49Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > A person in a tactical looking uniform is intimidating, and he or she should be. Policemen should not be intimidating. Nor should they wear military uniforms or ski masks. Policemen are the Good Guys. They are helpfull. They aren’t the secret police of some East European country. They shouldn’t dress or behave in a manner that makes them feel as though they are. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/33 "2005-06-10T18:59:09Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > but if you’ll recall the West Hollywood bank robbery where 2 armored thugs out gunned several DOZEN police officers, . No, they didn’t. How many of those thugs were killed by police fire? **Both**. How many police were killed or seriously injured?\* None.\* The problem wasn’t that the police were outgunned- it was the bad firearms training that LAPD gives it’s officers- which is to fire off all your rounds very rapidly at the center of body mass. This is fine for 90% of police shotting incidents, sure, but in this case if one officer had actually carefully aimed and shot the perps in the face, the battle would have been over very quickly. Yes, I know- when you are being shot AT, it’s very hard to “aim carefully”- but there were SO many police officers there that the thugs couldn’t keep them all under fire. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/34 "2005-06-10T19:20:48Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > I assumed a reasonable person would understand that I was talking about those situations… Around here? Nope - I’ll assume you say what you mean, and expect the same assumption about myself in return. If you meant more details, give 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/35 "2005-06-10T19:26:14Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > Here’s an idea. Since helicopters are already in the air watching the car, how about stopping the police cars from tailing the guy, let the chopper follow the guy home, and _then_ have your cops politely walk up to his front door and arrest him… Incredibly bad idea. Once he’s in the house, he’s barricaded with a bunch of weapons at his disposal and possible hostages. What do you mean, I don’t know that will happen? Right, neither do the cops. But the odds are that is what will happen, because it has happened many times before. Far better to take him down before he barricades. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/36 "2005-06-10T19:28:48Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > I find particularly appalling the automobile chases where a cop will nudge his car up against the rear quarter of the car he’s pursuing - often at highway, or greater, speeds trying push that car out of control. This just seems more than stupidly dangerous. What’s appalling about it? That technique has been around for a long time and is sometimes the only way to stop someone who refuses to pull over and who is placing innocent lives at risk every minute that he’s rolling down the road with his head up his ass. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/37 "2005-06-10T19:29:34Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > But the odds are that is what will happen, because it has happened many times before. Far better to take him down before he barricades. I know this is an excercise in futility, but… Cite? Do you have any non-anecdotal evidence that the majority of people who flee from police are going to head to their homes, arm themselves, barricade the doors, and maybe take some hostages? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/38 "2005-06-10T19:33:16Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I’m saying that they and their Camaro intercepter put **my life** at unnecessary risk. And they do it for stupid, stupid shit like seeing a joint in someone’s car. > > It’s not as if they’re pursuing an axe weilding murderer with someone’s kid in the trunk every time they go on one of these high-speed chases. Sorry, Cat. That’s total bullshit. They don’t do it for stupid shit, they do it because someone has broken the law. 99 times out of 100, the jerk is running because he’s got warrants out and the 100th time, he’s just plain stupid and thinks he can outdrive a radio. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/39 "2005-06-10T19:36:54Z")
It need not be a majority, nor even a strong minority, event, for the police to have to be expecting it, **Metacom**. All it need be is a reasonable possibilty, and they must act as if it _were_ likely. The police don’t get the luxury of second chances, nor are they permitted an ‘oops.’ ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702/40 "2005-06-10T19:40:54Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > How many innocent bystanders are injured or killed every year because of a high-speed police chase? Way too many - especially for an agency tasked to “Protect and Serve.” > [@](#): > > There are 250,000 police pursuits annually nationwide. Each year, about 500 deaths occur in speed pursuits; an average of one death a day during a high speed pursuit. At 100 MPH, the impact of a vehicle crash is comparable to a 30-story drop of a 2,000 pound object. Overall, 57,000 persons are killed or severely injured annually in the United States alone. One in four pursuits result in a crash; the majority of high speed drivers are males 18 to 25 years old; chases have lasted from one minute to several hours; covered a space of 100 yards to 200 miles. Deaths resulting from high speed chase incidents exceed deaths related to police discharge of firearms annually. The highest incidents of high speed chases and fatalities occur in metro Los Angeles, Miami, Dallas, Houston and Chicago. Los Angeles recorded 7,000 police pursuits; 1,200 injuries to innocent victims; another 980 injuries to police officers in the latest annual statistics. Los Angeles has one deadly pursuit every 4 1/2 hours; resulting in 1,000 deaths and injuries a year. One-third of all high speed chases deaths are innocent bystanders. About 10 percent of high speed chases are begun by felons while the vast majority begin from a simple traffic stop for a minor infraction. [http://www.civiliansdown.com/Statistics%20Page.htm](http://www.civiliansdown.com/Statistics%20Page.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiot-fuckin-cops/307702.md?page=3)