# Idiotic Orthodox Jewish Tradition Leads to Death of Seven Children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 22, 2015, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666 "2015-03-22T05:39:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SJL4041](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@SJL4041](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SJL4041)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/21 "2015-03-22T18:45:43Z")
I agree that it’s asinine to suggest that religion had nothing to do with this tragedy. But it’s also fair to note that bringing in a giant dried-out dead evergreen tree into your house and draping it with electrical lights for a month is probably also dangerous and stupid but we don’t seem to care when that leads to tragedy. I’m far more concerned about the social isolation of religious fundamentalists who put so much emphasis on avoiding outside influences and reproducing early and often, no matter which religion or cult they belong to. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/22 "2015-03-22T18:52:55Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > \*\* Idiotic Orthodox Jewish Tradition Leads to Death of Seven Children > > \*\*So it is idiotic to _not_ have open flames in the house? It’s too bad the hot plate caused a fire, but I don’t think I can call the idea idiotic. I don’t know anything about Jewish religious beliefs, but if there is no open flame, does that include the furnace’s pilot light? I believe the rule is that you can’t light a fire because that’s “work” the same goes for flipping on a switch. An existing fire that was started on Friday morning is ok. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/23 "2015-03-22T19:00:14Z")
Of course this is the result of religious stupidity. Aside from the fact that the rule is nonsense from the ass-end of antiquity, the hotplate is an attempt to rules-lawyer the God as described in the Jewish religion. Who is not only omnipotent, but a colossal prick and a bigger asshole than Zeus. The idea that this genocidal murderer they worship, who is, lets remember, omnipotent, is gonna say, “DON’T FLIP SWITCHES YON HEBREWS, I COMMAND IT! OH, WHAT’S THAT OVER THERE? OH, YOU’RE TURNING ON THE SWITCHES BEFORE SUNDOWN. AW, SHIT, YOU GOT ME. GOOD ONE, I HAVE TO COMMEND THAT SORT OF INGENUITY. AS YOU WERE, DON’T FORGET TO SLASH YOUR SON’S DICK. ME-BLESS!” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/24 "2015-03-22T19:10:52Z")
> [@SJL4041](#): > > I agree that it’s asinine to suggest that religion had nothing to do with this tragedy. But it’s also fair to note that bringing in a giant dried-out dead evergreen tree into your house and draping it with electrical lights for a month is probably also dangerous and stupid but we don’t seem to care when that leads to tragedy. Well, the Christmas tree is usually done for fun and the comfort of tradition, with the religious overtones being quite secondary. This hotplate disaster was done to obey a religious rule that’s seems a bit stupid on the face of it. And, then as others have noted, what stupidity was inherent to start with was doubled down with a moronic rules lawyering run around of the religious rule. Death due to fun or death due religious stupidity? Which is worse? Also, I’ll mostly give a pass on this religious stupidity because I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect a hot plate being left on to start a fire (unless it was something like it was on high and a pot of beans dried out then eventually caught fire sorta thing). ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/25 "2015-03-22T19:33:25Z")
Christian cult with a rule that you must dance with poisonous snakes: A tradition that leads to death sometimes. Christian cult with a rule that you must dance with snakes in general but someone chooses a poisonous snake because it’s all that they have available at the time: stupid application of a stupid rule but the rule didn’t cause the death. Orthodox Jewish law does not command unsafe use of hot plates. She had plenty of other options. The overwhelming number of fires caused by unattended hot plates are not from Orthodox Jews on the Sabbath. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/26 "2015-03-22T19:41:17Z")
To: Senor Beef Do you know what else is childish? Mocking others’ religion and culture. ---
**Author:** ![Honey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honey/32/5074_2.png) [@Honey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/27 "2015-03-22T19:43:45Z")
I’m going to ask a stupid question, please don’t hate. In regards to lighting a fire, does that only include gas stoves? Is it okay to use an electric stove? And, what about gas stoves you don’t have to light, because they have auto start? Are those allowed? I can’t imagine anything worse than losing your children. So sad. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/28 "2015-03-22T19:46:02Z")
> [@Honey](#): > > I’m going to ask a stupid question, please don’t hate. In regards to lighting a fire, does that only include gas stoves? Is it okay to use an electric stove? And, what about gas stoves you don’t have to light, because they have auto start? Are those allowed? > > I can’t imagine anything worse than losing your children. So sad. Turning on an electric switch causes a spark and can’t done. Setting a timer prior to sabbath is ok. Autostart is ok. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/29 "2015-03-22T19:47:06Z")
Also having a non-Jewish person come into your house and turn on a switch is ok but not a non-religious Jewish person. ---
**Author:** ![SJL4041](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@SJL4041](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SJL4041)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/30 "2015-03-22T19:47:42Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Orthodox Jewish law does not command unsafe use of hot plates. She had plenty of other options. The overwhelming number of fires caused by unattended hot plates are not from Orthodox Jews on the Sabbath. If you read the New York Times article, it seems the use of these hot plates is quite widespread in this community, probably because they are the cheapest and most convenient option. I’m guessing this family is probably extremely poor, considering the large number of children and small living space. It’s pretty scary that people from the community are talking about avoiding future tragedies by switching to the open-flame warming plates. It does indeed seem a particularly religious problem with these specific warming devices. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/31 "2015-03-22T19:48:18Z")
Hmmm. You can make a switch that does not cause a spark. I sense a market opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/32 "2015-03-22T19:48:30Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > To: Senor Beef > > Do you know what else is childish? Mocking others’ religion and culture. That’s utter horseshit. All religion is nonsense, but the dipshittery of trying to \*gotcha \*an omnipotent being to get around His rules is especially stupid. You have the right to your beliefs. And if they’re stupid, others have the right, or the duty, I’d say to point out how stupid they are. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/33 "2015-03-22T19:48:42Z")
It’s not lawyering to get around the rules, those are the rules. They may seem like stupid rules, but they are rules, and they aren’t getting around them. It is akin to cutting off your own legs so you can get a handicap sticker to park in special spots. That’s not lawyering around the rules, it’s just stupid. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/34 "2015-03-22T19:50:56Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > To: Senor Beef > > Do you know what else is childish? Mocking others’ religion and culture. Nope. Mockery is one of the best tools we have to discredit such things. Religion enjoys its power to harm the world in part because we agree that it’s a sacred cow that’s to be held up to much less scrutiny and criticism as much more silly beliefs. We’re allowed to say believing in little green men probing your anus is silly, that magical water cures cancer is silly, that the four humors model of medicine is silly, that the existance of werewolves and leprechauns is silly, but if you apply the same reasoning to religion - oh no, that’s childish and unacceptable, you have gravely offended those. Religious beliefs are acceptable and beyond scrutiny. Fuck that. Faith is a willful choice not to seek out the truth, not to understand the world better. Religions and their ignorance cause untold harm to the world. It is only not childish to use whatever tools you can to remove their special social status and discredit them the way you’d do the same to other kooky supernatural beliefs that were causing people to make poor decisions and hurt others, but it’s an upstanding, moral social good to strive for. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/35 "2015-03-22T19:51:21Z")
> [@choie](#): > > (I dragged all three cats with me down nine flights, hooray.) Three cats down nine flights? I am impressed. ---
**Author:** ![Honey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honey/32/5074_2.png) [@Honey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/36 "2015-03-22T20:01:31Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Turning on an electric switch causes a spark and can’t done. Setting a timer prior to sabbath is ok. Autostart is ok. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/37 "2015-03-22T20:12:10Z")
> [@camille](#): > > But the most incomprehensible thing was not having any working smoke detectors in the house (except for the basement, if the reports are correct). If the orthodox prohibition of “making a circuit” is considered, a smoke detector is forbidden by God, but only if it actually warns someone by beeping. Sounds like a serious paradox to me. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/38 "2015-03-22T20:14:52Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > If the orthodox prohibition of “making a circuit” is considered, a smoke detector is forbidden by God, but only if it actually warns someone by beeping. Sounds like a serious paradox to me. No. Smoke detectors are fine because the circuit is made automatically. You probably couldn’t install a smoke detector or change the battery on the Sabbath, however, but that might be superseded by the rule that you can break any law to save a life. Those kids died for two reasons, a stupid application of a law and not having appropriate safety equipment installed. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/39 "2015-03-22T20:16:29Z")
If the cause of this tragedy was because of following the rules of a storybook, then yes, it is a religious tragedy. And if this god was true and these were his rules, why would anyone worship it? If religion, tradition, or “that’s just the way we do things 'round these parts” causes inconvenience, injury, and in this case death and tragedy, then it’s time to forget said religion, tradition or the “way we do things.” Go forward, not back to a storybook. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/40 "2015-03-22T20:18:04Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Turning on an electric switch causes a spark and can’t [be] done. Setting a timer prior to sabbath is ok. Autostart is ok. I’ve heard that. But isn’t that just time-shifting the prohibition of “making fire”? You turn on the timer switch _before_ sabbath, and hours later, _the timer_ turns on the appliance. Is God unable to connect the two events? Does He consult a sundown chart and carry a stopwatch so He knows who to punish and when? I’m not in the camp that blames religion on this accident although it may have made it more likely. Anyone can leave a hotplate on too long by accident. But wouldn’t a benevolent god have used his awesome powers to prevent it, especially if someone is trying to follow his bullshit rules? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666.md?page=3)