# Idiotic Orthodox Jewish Tradition Leads to Death of Seven Children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 22, 2015, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666 "2015-03-22T05:39:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/81 "2015-03-22T23:43:00Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > God appreciates that you take the _Word_ (still the Word in Judaism, not made Flesh in Jesus) ‘seriously’ enough _to_ invent ways of technical ‘compliance,’ while still living a relatively typical modern life… as opposed to saying fuck these stupid rules. Come on. A string around a group of buildings? That isn’t some modern world bullshit, they could’ve done that at any point in their history. A question like “which direction do you face to pray to Mecca when you’re in space” is a question you might need to answer to integrate religious ritual into a modern society. Tying a string around a bunch of buildings to fool God into thinking it’s all your home so you can carry your housekeys in your pocket is absurdly childish and not any sort of recent need being answered. It’s hard to imagine the psychotic controlling entity of those stories being cool with you thwarting the spirit of his orders by finding little loopholes or silly cheats. And hey, you know, if he’s not, you’re only going to get the worst possible punishment ever. So let’s just wing it and hope God has a sense of humor about his rules. Is there scriptural support for the idea that God digs creative cheats around his orders? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/82 "2015-03-22T23:45:22Z")
[Idiotic religious practice](http://www.nfpa.org/safety-information/for-consumers/holidays/christmas-tree-fires) causes “an average of 6 deaths, 22 injuries, and $18.3 million in direct property damage annually.” No. The fact that electrical shorts, too many extension cords, and sometimes stupidity or ignorance, results in Christmas tree fires and multiple resultant deaths every year is not an “idiotic religious practice” being the cause of those deaths. If you **SB** go after Christianity with OUTRAGE for having a tradition of Christmas trees with lights that has resulted in these deaths _every year_ then you are being a complete idiot. If you have not then you are a hypocritical asshole. Of course you could be both. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/83 "2015-03-22T23:46:59Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I’ve been accused of being racist many times for completely race-neutral comments on Judaism and Islam. I’ve never been criticized in that way when I’ve gone after Christianity just as savagely. Have you really never seen liberals running in trying to be apologists for the cultural or religious practices of any sort of non-western source? It happens constantly. > > I suspect how it developed was that a lot of the bile and hatred thrown at Judaism and Islam are indeed racially or ethnically motivated by a lot of bigots. People who are too dumb, for example, to even know that most Muslims aren’t Arab - so most of their “towel head” hatred is directed at “Muslims” rather than any particular race or ethnicity, even though the latter is probably the main motivator. So Liberals reflexively argue against them, as part of their anti-racism platform, and just generally their attempt to have an air of cultural relativity and non-judgement about cultural issues. > > But then they take that reflexive apologism of any other culture or religion that people in their own culture might be xenophobic towards and then apply it where it doesn’t belong, like against people who attack all religions equally. > > Which leads to the ultimate head up your ass position of social justice warriors thinking the US and the western worlds are horribly oppressive patriarchies, but places where they fucking stone women to death for being raped are unique and beautiful cultures above criticism, because hey, our culture has flaws too. You poor, oppressed straight, white male. Your life must be so hard. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/84 "2015-03-22T23:47:05Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Keep requesting it. What am I going to do, go through each poster’s individual history until I find that exact post that bashes something to do with Christian stupidity? That’s boring homework. I’m not accusing a specific user, but the general tone. Are you doubting that there are people who mock stupid Christian beliefs but come to the defense of similar Jewish or Islamic beliefs? > > I said “If some obscure stupid Christian rule lead to people getting killed, we’d all be mocking it.” - do you disagree that there are threads on this board in which people mock stupid Christian beliefs? Or are you saying that the people who participate in this thread are an entirely separate group from them? When I say “we” in that statement, I mean the general population of this board. > > Even if you were right, and the particular people in this thread that were excusing it as a non-religious practice didn’t bash Christianity, so what? The rest of my points about how that’s absurd would still stand, and my general points about people who are willing to bash Christian religious stupidity but not Judaism/Islam apply, there are certainly a lot of those people. You’re just trying to feed me busywork to prove something that’s obvious and not even a core premise to my point that this is religious stupidity. Your general point is undoubtedly true both in the real world and on this board. What I don’t appreciate was your insinuation that I am a hypocrite. If you meant that this is a general trend and not directed at a specific few of us, then you should have said so at the outset or at least clarified later with an apology. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/85 "2015-03-22T23:47:43Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > So I expect there will massive numbers of articles expressing sympathy for the deaths, but none questioning this idiotic tradition. Damn, [I thought this was going to be about circumcision](http://www.circinfo.org/USA_deaths.html). ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/86 "2015-03-22T23:50:22Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Yes, it’s all a complete 100% bullshit lie. All religious rules are. But that didn’t help the religious person religiously decide what his religion expected of him regarding pushing a button for his needs. (According to another neighbor, he never wore it on Sabbath. Can’t confirm that, obviously.) This person was devout, so this news about life-saving acceptance to break a rule coming from you or me may not have been enough to convince him. The life-saving acceptance to break a rule is so fundamental that there is no way that he wouldn’t know about it and it’s considered an outright sin to disobey it. Your friend of a friend story probably didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/87 "2015-03-22T23:51:59Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > So you’re an equal opportunity jerk. Glad we got that straightened out. :rolleyes: How am I a jerk? I think that people should be equal and good to each other because this world is all we’ve got, and all we can do is try to make it a better place for each other and maximize happiness. I don’t oppress people in the name of my religion. I don’t take glee in the idea that those who aren’t part of my little group is going to be tortured for eternity by my all-loving god. I don’t do good to others because I think God is like Santa and he’s keeping a list and I’ll be rewarded if I do so. I do good to others because everyone’s life would be better if we were better to each other. I can say with total confidence that I am more kind than the average religious person. A fucking retarded woman obeying her religious tradition burned a bunch of kids to death. I think that sucks, and that makes me the jerk? You are simply asking for special privilege for whatever it is your silly beliefs are. You’re like those people who say Richard Dawkins is a raving militant maniac because he’s willing to say religion shouldn’t be privileged when in reality he’s actually this polite little British guy who actually speaks with a lot of nuance, careful language, and wants to make the world a better place. You want to imply that my action of applying scrutiny to religious evil is an inherently rude or shocking thing. This is part of how your type has kept your silly beliefs in a privileged position for so long, and caused so much harm along the way. > [@](#): > > When you were in elementary or middle school, and your Social Studies teacher had a unit about the Yanomami, did you mock them? Mock them for what? Because they have weird body modifications? Is my posting in this thread anything like that? I’m not saying “Haha Jewish people wear funny hats!” I’m saying “adherence to stupid fucking religious/cultural ideals just got a bunch of fucking kids burnt to death” - I mock things that are harmful. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/88 "2015-03-22T23:55:54Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Fooling civic functionaries for a real-world benefit isn’t quite the same thing as trying to fool an omnipotent psychopath, for no actual benefit whatsoever. > > That said, I wouldn’t do the former either. I feel bad using my mom’s disabled pass when I take her to the store. And she genuinely has mobility issues. They aren’t trying to fool an omnipotent psychopath, they believe the omnipotent psychopath knows about it and does not disapprove. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/89 "2015-03-22T23:56:19Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Come on. A string around a group of buildings? That isn’t some modern world bullshit, they could’ve done that at any point in their history. I think they did essentially exploit the same interpretation in many times and places, though generally with more substantial connections between buildings than string. Again, it’s not seen as a cheat around, it’s seen as adherence to the letter of the law. Because the letter, the Word, is what’s important; it’s how you prove you’re paying attention. There is no “spirit of the law” to be subverted. That’s the understanding I’ve been given, anyway, from nonpracticing Jewish interlocuters. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/90 "2015-03-23T00:06:55Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Your general point is undoubtedly true both in the real world and on this board. What I don’t appreciate was your insinuation that I am a hypocrite. If you meant that this is a general trend and not directed at a specific few of us, then you should have said so at the outset or at least clarified later with an apology. In that case, I’m sorry to you, **hajario**. You may well not be a hypocrite. I have no particular reason to suspect that you, personally, are. It was not my intent to call out specific posters in this thread, but rather a general tone, and a general tendency for a lot of people to do what I described. I did not mean to implicate any particular individual in this, since I don’t recall anyone specifically in this thread being involved in Christian stupidity bashing. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You poor, oppressed straight, white male. > > Your life must be so hard. Hey, conveniently I already included [a link](http://www.reddit.com/r/tumblrinaction) where you can see your kind in action. Pretty much no one in the modern western world is (systematically) oppressed. But if you want to play this card,[take a look at this](http://www.gallup.com/poll/155285/atheists-muslims-bias-presidential-candidates.aspx). That’s not exactly analogous to anything - propensity to vote for a presidential candidate is not a direct analog to oppression, and atheism is a lack of belief rather than intrinsic value like ethnicity, but it would suggest that if we’re talking about people disliking you because of an attribute then atheism is actually pretty far up there. I’ve seen a similar poll in which it was roughly tied with rapist. But, you know, I’m mansplaining/whitesplaining/cissplaining this to you, so it’s all worthless anyway. > [@DSeid](#): > > [Idiotic religious practice](http://www.nfpa.org/safety-information/for-consumers/holidays/christmas-tree-fires) causes “an average of 6 deaths, 22 injuries, and $18.3 million in direct property damage annually.” > > No. The fact that electrical shorts, too many extension cords, and sometimes stupidity or ignorance, results in Christmas tree fires and multiple resultant deaths every year is not an “idiotic religious practice” being the cause of those deaths. > > If you **SB** go after Christianity with OUTRAGE for having a tradition of Christmas trees with lights that has resulted in these deaths _every year_ then you are being a complete idiot. If you have not then you are a hypocritical asshole. > > Of course you could be both. You’re trained in a decent amount of epidemiology, right? What’s the actual per-hour chance of death from a Christmas tree fire vs leaving a hotplate unattended all day? How many orders of magnitude lower does it have to be in order to not be considered equally idiotic? Christmas trees are a poor example, anyway, since they’re more secular than Christian at this point anyway. Lots of people who aren’t practicing Christians use them. They aren’t part of any sort of any Christian religious doctrine. There’s not a cultural tradition to use them in an unsafe way as a workaround to appease a silly Christian rule. Now by all means, you can find some sort of comparison. Perhaps Christian Scientists who die of routinely treatable conditions because they think all of their diseases are signs of spiritual impurity and can only be healed through faith. That would be a more analogous example of doctrinal religious stupidity leading to harm. Do you think I’d be kind to such an idea? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/91 "2015-03-23T00:15:12Z")
To add to that, I’m not even participating in this thread because I’m outraged at the fire. I mean, sure, that’s obnoxious, but there are all sorts of obnoxious religious horrible practices maiming and killing people left and right all day. What got me into this thread were people who were trying to brush aside the religious connection to this tragedy, trying to equate it to simply having a coffeemaker malfunction and create a fire. It’s the latter that really incenses me and brings me to a thread. I’m unneeded in threads that bash Christian religious stupidity because that’s not the tone of the thread - in those threads, the religious stupidity is properly skewered. So not only did you pick a poor analogy, but you directed your accusations of hypocrisy the wrong way. I’m not a hypocrite if I’m not equally participating for every incidence of death caused by religious stupidity - I could keep up with that 24/7 and still not have the time to properly rant about it. I assume you’re passionate about the damage that alternative medicine bullshit can do - if you rail on the stupidity of homeopathy, can I call you an asshole hypocrite if you’re not also spending all your time making sure you’re equally ranting against Reiki? My main point in this thread is about the social privilege religions enjoy, and that includes crediting good acts to religions but absolving religions of the negative effects of their stone age beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/92 "2015-03-23T00:21:50Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > [Idiotic religious practice](http://www.nfpa.org/safety-information/for-consumers/holidays/christmas-tree-fires) causes “an average of 6 deaths, 22 injuries, and $18.3 million in direct property damage annually.” > No. The fact that electrical shorts, too many extension cords, and sometimes stupidity or ignorance, results in Christmas tree fires and multiple resultant deaths every year is not an “idiotic religious practice” being the cause of those deaths. > > If you **SB** go after Christianity with OUTRAGE for having a tradition of Christmas trees with lights that has resulted in these deaths _every year_ then you are being a complete idiot. If you have not then you are a hypocritical asshole. > > Of course you could be both. Christmas trees are obnoxious. I’ve told my family we’re just not going to do that anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/93 "2015-03-23T00:28:54Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > The life-saving acceptance to break a rule is so fundamental that there is no way that he wouldn’t know about it and it’s considered an outright sin to disobey it. Your friend of a friend story probably didn’t happen. Like I said, I can’t cite the crappy story, but that was a bad example anyway. With this recent incident in the OP, I was trying to question why this life saving acceptance rule wasn’t used here. Electric appliances are dangerous left on all night may potentially save lives if turned off, so couldn’t that rule be used here for the potential live saving event? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/94 "2015-03-23T00:29:10Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > That said, keeping the switch on, is obviously trying to get around the proscribed action. No, it isn’t. The proscribed action does not happen so there is nothing to get around. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/95 "2015-03-23T00:30:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > They aren’t trying to fool an omnipotent psychopath, they believe the omnipotent psychopath knows about it and does not disapprove. There are these rules, and I don’t follow them that well, but God will understand. I mean it’s not like he destroys cities, or murders helpless children of bad regimes, or kills off a man’s family because of a bet. Sounds legit. Honestly though, I know what’s happening. They don’t want to suffer the costs of faith, but they want the benefits. It’s like saying otters are fish so you can eat them. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/96 "2015-03-23T00:33:28Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > How am I a jerk? That you have to ask this is amazing to me. Denigrating another person’s cultural identity or religious beliefs IS being a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/97 "2015-03-23T00:35:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, it isn’t. The proscribed action does not happen so there is nothing to get around. Yes it doesn’t happen. Because they worked around it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/98 "2015-03-23T00:37:07Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > That you have to ask this is amazing to me. > > Denigrating another person’s cultural identity or religious beliefs IS being a jerk. So you support ISIL’s systemic use of rape, right? You support female circumcision, right? You support North Korea’s prison camps, right? You’re rapidly gaining on Clothy for the most reflexively stupid poster on the board. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/99 "2015-03-23T00:37:29Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Like I said, I can’t cite the crappy story, but that was a bad example anyway. > > With this recent incident in the OP, I was trying to question why this life saving acceptance rule wasn’t used here. Electric appliances are dangerous left on all night may potentially save lives if turned off, so couldn’t that rule be used here for the potential live saving event? Because the person involved was stupid and didn’t think that they were risking someone’s life. The lack of smoke detectors probably played a part too. They should have just eaten peanut butter and jelly sandwiches once a week. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/100 "2015-03-23T00:37:32Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Yes it doesn’t happen. Because they worked around it. I love it when goyim tell us how Judaism is supposed to work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666.md?page=6)