# Idiotic Orthodox Jewish Tradition Leads to Death of Seven Children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 22, 2015, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666 "2015-03-22T05:39:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/101 "2015-03-23T00:41:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I love it when goyim tell us how Judaism is supposed to work. I love it when morons reflexively defend their religion’s stupidity because they’re too weak to cast it into the garbage heap of history where it belongs. Be a man, stop groveling to imaginary spirits and stand among the rational. \<3 ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/102 "2015-03-23T00:42:20Z")
Atheist here. I’d just like to point out that while I celebrate Christmas, I don’t put up a tree. But I might, someday. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/103 "2015-03-23T00:45:19Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So you support ISIL’s systemic use of rape, right? You support female circumcision, right? You support North Korea’s prison camps, right? Go fuck a cactus. The hotplate fire, or for that matter tying strings around a neighborhood, are nothing like NK prison camps. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/104 "2015-03-23T00:49:21Z")
Let’s see. Orthodox Jews have been following the rule about not cooking on Shabbat for many hundreds of years. Fires associated with following the practice that I can find documented? One. This one. Yup statistically one event is plenty to condemn a practice as idiotic … at least if it has some religious connection. Epidemiologically? One event is an insignificant number. Which does seem to be your point I guess. “Idiotic _cultural_ tradition causes six deaths each year!” doesn’t bother you because you do not view celebrating Christmas as religious? Just culture is fine; it’s religious stuff that is _by definition_ idiotic, because you do not share the belief so the belief is idotic. Or because a majority do it so it isn’t “obscure”? Ignorance and serious consequences thereof is fine if it is, in your mind, associated with something secular or done by most. But if someone makes a poor choice in the course of doing something they think is religious then it is the religious belief that caused the tragedy. No there is no Orthodox Jewish cultural tradition to do unsafe things to avoid cooking on Shabbat. There are people who are ignorant that certain things are not as safe as they think they are and who then do things that, on this one occasion, caused serious harm. Putting old [television sets](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/01/30/tvs-tip-over-on-toddlers-with-surprising-frequency-causing-injuries-and-deaths/) on low laying tables and dressers is also something people do out of ignorance, hundreds have died as a result. Not religiously inspired though so no worries. Bad things happening due to ignorance are fine if they are secularly motivated. In your mind anyway. The problem was ignorance about the risk of using a hot plate in that manner; not the religious law. Yes you are being a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/105 "2015-03-23T00:50:55Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Go fuck a cactus. The hotplate fire, or for that matter tying strings around a neighborhood, are nothing like NK prison camps. I’m sorry retard, didn’t you say that, “Denigrating another person’s cultural identity or religious beliefs IS being a jerk.”? It seems to me that you’re denigrating dear leader’s divine proclamations and thus, by your own stupid fucking standards, you’re a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/106 "2015-03-23T01:00:05Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Let’s see. Orthodox Jews have been following the rule about not cooking on Shabbat for many hundreds of years. Fires associated with following the practice that I can find documented? One. This one. Yup statistically one event is plenty to condemn a practice as idiotic … at least if it has some religious connection. Epidemiologically? One event is an insignificant number. > > Which does seem to be your point I guess. “Idiotic _cultural_ tradition causes six deaths each year!” doesn’t bother you because you do not view celebrating Christmas as religious? Just culture is fine; it’s religious stuff that is _by definition_ idiotic, because you do not share the belief so the belief is idotic. Or because a majority do it so it isn’t “obscure”? Ignorance and serious consequences thereof is fine if it is, in your mind, associated with something secular or done by most. But if someone makes a poor choice in the course of doing something they think is religious then it is the religious belief that caused the tragedy. > > No there is no Orthodox Jewish cultural tradition to do unsafe things to avoid cooking on Shabbat. There are people who are ignorant that certain things are not as safe as they think they are and who then do things that, on this one occasion, caused serious harm. Putting old [television sets](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/01/30/tvs-tip-over-on-toddlers-with-surprising-frequency-causing-injuries-and-deaths/) on low laying tables and dressers is also something people do out of ignorance, hundreds have died as a result. Not religiously inspired though so no worries. Bad things happening due to ignorance are fine if they are secularly motivated. In your mind anyway. > > The problem was ignorance about the risk of using a hot plate in that manner; not the religious law. > > Yes you are being a jerk. I don’t doubt that the number of deaths due to this stupid and backwards practice is low. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a stupid and backwards practice. The number of Orthodox Jews in America is trivial, like 500k. I’m not sure how many households that is, but the number households with Christmas trees is like 100 million. I’d think you’d have to factor that into your danger calculations. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/107 "2015-03-23T01:00:33Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’m sorry retard, didn’t you say that, “Denigrating another person’s cultural identity or religious beliefs IS being a jerk.”? > > It seems to me that you’re denigrating dear leader’s divine proclamations and thus, by your own stupid fucking standards, you’re a jerk. Using “retard” as an insult is so second grade, and also being a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/108 "2015-03-23T01:01:30Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Using “retard” as an insult is so second grade, and also being a jerk. This is the sound of you failing utterly. Which, I suppose, is an omnipresent tinnitus-like buzzing in your ears. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/109 "2015-03-23T01:02:14Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > Is it really law or is it a belief? Keeping the Sabbath by humans not initiating creative action is the religious law of a religious community. There are various different strands of tradition about how to comply with the aforementioned law, including many who go along the way of _“dammit, it means concentrate on spiritual things, not to avoid even blinking for 24 hours!”_ Using some sort of contraption to keep food hot the entire day is a custom or habit arising among some people in some of those traditions, and as mentioned is non-mandatory even for them. And add me to those who even as a Gentile have known almost from the start of my awareness of Judaism that there is an exception for lifesaving and harm-avoidance in the Sabbath rule that you could drive a freight train through. That people are under the misimpression that they’d better die than hit a speed-dial button is an indictment of the congregation’s leaders and teachers. > [@TriPolar](#): > > They aren’t trying to fool an omnipotent psychopath, they believe the omnipotent psychopath knows about it and does not disapprove. > [@Peremensoe](#): > > Again, it’s not seen as a cheat around, it’s seen as adherence to the letter of the law. Because the letter, the Word, is what’s important; it’s how you prove you’re paying attention. There is no “spirit of the law” to be subverted. Right. The idea being apparently that you’re responsible for finding a way to lead as whole and productive a life as possible while yet observing the Law. Still, it ends up looking like instead of an omnipotent psycopath you have an omnipotent BPD case, putting you to the test to see at what point you’ll say _“that’s it, I don’t have to take this, \*\*\*\* you YHWH I’m done with you!”_ At which point come the locusts, or plague, or Assyrians, and the prophets tell you how sad he is that you don’t return his love. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/110 "2015-03-23T01:35:26Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I don’t doubt that the number of deaths due to this stupid and backwards practice is low. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a stupid and backwards practice. … And here again is the key point. This is a tradition and belief that is not mine and not that of the majority in this society; those who follow it are a small minority, a minority of a minority. It is therefore, by definition, a stupid and backwards practice. Such is the belief system of those who are truly stupid and backwards. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/111 "2015-03-23T01:56:13Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I don’t doubt that the number of deaths due to this stupid and backwards practice is low. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a stupid and backwards practice. > > The number of Orthodox Jews in America is trivial, like 500k. I’m not sure how many households that is, but the number households with Christmas trees is like 100 million. I’d think you’d have to factor that into your danger calculations. And it’s even less now that the good lord has provided us with inexpensive LED lights. My guess it that Christmas trees have caused more deaths per capita than keeping food hot over the Jewish Sabbath but I’m not going to bother trying to find out. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/112 "2015-03-23T02:18:14Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > They aren’t trying to fool an omnipotent psychopath, they believe the omnipotent psychopath knows about it and does not disapprove. > [@Lobohan](#): > > There are these rules, and I don’t follow them that well, but God will understand. I mean it’s not like he destroys cities, or murders helpless children of bad regimes, or kills off a man’s family because of a bet. > > Sounds legit. > > Honestly though, I know what’s happening. They don’t want to suffer the costs of faith, but they want the benefits. It’s like saying otters are fish so you can eat them. I don’t think you get it Lobohan. As I understand it, the Judaic tradition imposes certain rules, but they are believed to be to the benefit of the believer. The point is by doing certain things, you cultivate an _awareness_, an awareness of let’s say a broader perspective. Jews don’t avoid pork in order to avoid trichinosis. They do so because it’s a discipline mandated by God, a God who _also_ explicitly permits certain opt outs. The best quote for this POV comes from Islam IMO. They have a pretty detailed procedure for praying 5 times a day. Here’s what the Holy Koran says, via wikipedia. I’ll add emphasis. [QUOTE=The Holy Koran] “O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith,\*\* Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful.\*\*” — Qur’an, sura 5 (Al-Ma’ida), ayat 6[20] [/QUOTE] [Salah - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salat) The Lord doesn’t pick nits, but He does appreciate effort, just as He (in Judaism) provides a _specific_ command to suspend the other rules should it involve saving lives. There are critiques to be made from this last POV of course. And there are variants of monotheism (esp Fundamentalist Protestant) that are hyper literal and lack a mature sense of human priority. But your comments so far at least have been misdirected. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/113 "2015-03-23T02:23:31Z")
I think the moral of the story is you need to use the good sense _someone_ gave you, whether it’s a hotplate or a Christmas tree. I think the practice is ridiculous, since it is not a personal belief of mine that there is a God or that it cares about such trivial things as electricity. But would it have been less tragic if the fire was the result of a candle being knocked over or a space heater overheating, which happens all the freakin’ time? I don’t think so. I like to think that there is a silver lining here. One, the followers of this practice will think twice between doing what this woman did so that similar tragedies don’t occur again. Two, people of all creeds and persuasions will be reminded of the importance of smoke detectors. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/114 "2015-03-23T02:49:37Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I like to think that there is a silver lining here. One, the followers of this practice will think twice between doing what this woman did so that similar tragedies don’t occur again. Two, people of all creeds and persuasions will be reminded of the importance of smoke detectors. In spite of what some on this thread claimed, there is nothing in Halacha (Jewish religious laws) that would prohibit smoke detectors in the house, and I am not aware of any Jewish denominations that require that there be no smoke detectors. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/115 "2015-03-23T02:53:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > In spite of what some on this thread claimed, there is nothing in Halacha (Jewish religious laws) that would prohibit smoke detectors in the house, and I am not aware of any Jewish denominations that require that there be no smoke detectors. Which wasn’t at all what **monstro** was suggesting. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/116 "2015-03-23T02:55:58Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Which wasn’t at all what **monstro** was suggesting. As I posted, _some_ on this thread suggested it. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/117 "2015-03-23T03:00:57Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Which leads to the ultimate head up your ass position of social justice warriors thinking the US and the western worlds are horribly oppressive patriarchies, but places where they fucking stone women to death for being raped are unique and beautiful cultures above criticism, because hey, our culture has flaws too. And now I understand where you are coming from. This is an anti-feminist thing. You even used the word “social justice warrior,” which is not used in earnest outside that community. So I’ll tell you what I tell them. Caricaturing your opponents’ position doesn’t help convince anyone. No one actually holds the two beliefs you are indicating. When it comes to these sorts of things, you can’t gloss over the details. If it seems like two positions contradict each other, then you’ve misunderstood them. When you say something about how it’s wrong to oppress women, you will not get any feminist to disagree. The problem is when you take that and use it to condemn a culture. * * * Not that this has anything to do with what’s going on here. What’s going on here is that Judaism is a minority in our country, which means it gets defended more than Christianity which is a majority. And, as you point out, it’s connected to an ethnicity. Finally, white knighting, as you apparently define the term, is never a bad thing. This story is ONE WOMAN who did something stupid, and some people are using it to condemn everyone who shares her religion. That is wrong, and if it is “white knighting” to point that out, then “white knight” just means “decent person.” Because condemning all of a group due to one person is bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/118 "2015-03-23T03:02:19Z")
Also, for everyone arguing that Jews are “cheating” when they do this sort of thing, the irony is that this idea comes from Christianity. It’s pretty much the focus of Jesus’s teachings to the Pharisees. The whole “spirit of the law” thing came from Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/119 "2015-03-23T03:14:48Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You poor, oppressed straight, white male. > > Your life must be so hard. Yeah. The reason that Jews don’t get more shit is probably because a lot of non-Jews simply don’t much about Judaism. It’s really that simple. They think it’s just Christianity without Jesus. The notion that this turns Christians into some sort of oppressed religious minority where everyone is taking potshots at them is ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666/120 "2015-03-23T03:43:28Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Hey, conveniently I already included [a link](http://www.reddit.com/r/tumblrinaction) where you can see your kind in action. Well, I missed this link. You’re seriously going to point to that troll subreddit? Really? The place where a bunch of people go antagonize people on Tumblr and get them to say things in anger and then make fun of them? The group that, when people aren’t saying silly enough things, makes their own troll Tumblr accounts so they can post things and get karma? Tumblr has a lot of young feminists that have not fully thought through their worldview. You are not special because you can antagonize them and get them to say things that are silly. Also, for those of us in the know, linking that subreddit is pretty much a confession that you are part of a certain group\*. Just letting you know that I know but am keeping mum to be nice. \*Well, one of two groups, but both are hated here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idiotic-orthodox-jewish-tradition-leads-to-death-of-seven-children/715666.md?page=7)