And why are you pretending this is about your good-eatin’?
Not really. You seem quite reasonable outside of your irrational hatred of religion. I am also an atheist, and it’s not atheism that causes you to blame a bunch of deaths on Sabbath observance.
By the way, while there are some benefits that Orthodox Jews get from Sabbath observance (they really and truly get a day of rest, and the rest of us mostly don’t) but imo, the costs to them are not worth that benefit. They get other benefits by way of being part of the close, supportive community that tip the balance for many of them. So following those laws is not strictly irrational. But be that as it may, it does not lead to a higher death rate. I’m sure you can find some Christian sect that has a lower incidence of seat-belt use than the rest of us, but it is not the theology they follow that leads to a riskier life style, it’s just that people do what their friends do. Similarly, no matter how whacky the Jewish Sabbath rules are, they don’t lead to house fires. Possibly, the customs of the people who happen to follow them do, but the religion doesn’t. (And despite this one incident, I haven’t seen data to suggest it is generally true. But whether it is or isn’t is irrelevant to the argument)
Several people have pointed this out to you in several ways, and you cling to your irrational belief that “this incident is evidence that Sabbath rules are bad”. That’s the fallacy you are committing.
I never said it lead to a higher death by fire rate. In fact at some point I said I didn’t think it did, statistically, but it’s just speculative.
I gave you a fact about a specific event and drew my own judgement. You draw yours.
Need I point out that these kids didn’t draw much benefit from Sabbath?
Must we agree? Should I be shouted down for saying that?
Is this irrational? :rolleyes:
You’re just arguing against positions I don’t hold.
You’ve never been to a Seder I presume. And certainly never had my chicken soup with matzah balls or my brisket!
Pesach very seriously is as much about the food as it is about the myth and the two are intimately tied together.
Does this particular myth serve a greater function, reinforcing a particular set of values and connection to both a specific cultural heritage and to all who are oppressed? Yeah, sure. Myths are important to a culture whether you believe in their literal truth or not. They are how we define who “we” are and what we aspire to be.
Do I follow the traditions because of that function? Nah. And I have no belief in a God who is watching or who would give a shit. It is a time for family and guests (often, including tonight, those who are not Jewish) and a connection to a less distant history, that of childhood memories, parents and grandparents now gone, as I transition into the alterkocher group. And my Bubbie’s matzah balls, like handballs they were … horrible … but remembering them makes me smile every time.
Rituals, arbitrary as they may be, “idiotic” as you may judge them, and based on myths as they most commonly are, connect us to each other, to a sense of history and belonging, and help establish what our values are. And in this case involves lots of good food and crappy wine. (But you have to serve it … it’s a tradition!)
Again, these things are possible without religion too.
Not anything you’ll comprehend I am sure.
My judgement is that this community is so backwards thinking that they can’t even use electrical appliances correctly. Probably because religion has eaten away at their brain. Discuss?
puzzlegal, all I hate is the special status religion holds among woo beliefs.
And I don’t think religion is ONLY woo to the exclusion of everything else, as I have clearly demonstrated, so don’t even go there, please.
I do, and I go. Tonight is my cousin’s daughter’s house. Next week I get together with my girlfriends and we all bring an old school dish from the best of our family recipes: Matzoh ball soup, chopped liver and onions, potato kugel, gefilte fish, etc.
A happy and healthy one to all.
So we’re all on the same page, that the community in question regularly uses hotplates for stupid reasons in order to satisfy a rule invented by fairly primitive people thousands of years ago, right?
I’ll agree that nowhere in the rule is the necessity for using hotplates inscribed. This is very likely since the rule predates hotplates. But I’d also point out, that religious leaders in the community do the same damn thing, so blaming it on this poor woman, instead of the religion is off base, right?
The religion, or at least the practice of that religion, up to and including the clergy in that community are at somewhat at fault in this case. Absolve broader Judaism if you will. But I’d say that if following your religion’s rules less intensely leads to better results, that might be a sign that your religion isn’t worth it.
Clearly you actually worship Loa.
When did my points become about your traditions or your nonexistent god?
And why are you making my points for me?
The first agreed with the following correction: multiple members in the community in question regularly use hot plates in order as means of having warm food while still satisfying a rule that many people outside the community would consider stupid.
To the second, not quite. Blaming on a presumptively poor risk assessment that has been normative within the community is appropriate. The religion has nothing to do with the fact that a poor choice had become normative.
But this point has been made and not understood many many times by now. Each of us saying yes it is and no it isn’t over and over again is futility.
That’s fair. I don’t think the rule is inherently more stupid than any other religious proscription. I do think the work-arounds are asinine. But that’s a personal preference thing. I like old-timey flagellants and mummering hair-shirt-clad penitents in the summer-sun.
I would say that the religion is what’s driving the behavior. And I’m talking specifically about the religion as that group has practiced it. Not the religion as practices by the more secular Jews who push elevator buttons no matter the day of the week. The more secular a religion becomes, the better lives the adherents live, in my experience.
Well, that’s the point right? Whoever gives up last, wins the debate. 
Pedro, if you agree that rituals and myths (be they fictional or factual and myths can and are either) serve an important purpose for many many people and bring value into their lives then this conversation has come a long way.
Yes there are secular rituals and mythologies and these also can serve similar functions. The stories they are based on are often just as silly and the values they define not always the best ones. Often these rituals and mythologies are based more on nationalism and other fictive tribalisms. Not sure they are much improvement. Personally I prefer the myth I celebrate tonight and how it defines what I should aspire to. But your mileage may vary and that is fine.
Ah. Viewed from a secular perspective where more like the life you live is your definition of better. Certainly as a secular American I cannot disagree too much. But what is “better” depends on who you are. The people who live within that community, like the Amish and other insular fundamentalist groups, view a more secular existence as a poorer quality life, devoid of an experience that they perceive as a connection to the divine and a perceived certainty of purpose. They see a secular existence like mine as an impoverished one; one that has been offered a gift of great value and turned it down. That is as much reality for them as my perceived experience is for me.
I have never said otherwise. Have I?
I don’t care if they’re secular or mythical or whatever. I’m going to judge them (there’s no fucking right or wrong here, just to be clear on that) on their own merits.
If they involve magical thinking, be they religious or not, I’ll be thinking they’re stupid and you’re probably a bit simple minded. If you’re (general you) a nice person, I won’t say it to your face.
I’m exaggerating but not by much. You get the gist.
And really DSeid, you want to sweep under the carpet everything negative about religion and other cults, and how that creates distorted thinking, just because you get some good food and wine out of it?
Less victim to the various inanities of the religion in question. It varies based on the religion. Having your Sundays free is an obvious one for Christianity. Women being equal is another, for other brands of it. I’m sure I can come up with a list of ways religion makes lives worse for their adherents. Of course, some women may like spending a few days in the unclean hut, but not having to is probably a better state of being.
Living a 15th century lifestyle is all well and good. But I’d suggest that they get their happiness largely from living in perceived accordance with their God’s dictates. Essentially they’re living ascetic lives in order to have a great payoff that will never come. I guess it’s good that they’ll never know it’ll never come, since they’ll be dead, but it’s still living in privation to no end.
Not having nice things is okay if you’ve never had it. But if you think modern life isn’t, in general, better, I’d find that hard to support.
Here is a video of some dudes from the Ivory Coast eating chocolate for the first time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEN4hcZutO0
Yeah, they are happy in their lives, but the comfort and enrichment of a modern 21st century first worlder is pretty fucking sweet in comparison. Living a life where you don’t have the option of the ease and comfort of the modern world isn’t a huge tragedy, but it does limit your options. This relates to the Amish because they similarly live in conditions that are below 21st century first world standards. I’m sure without their religion, the Amish would do a lot of stuff they want to, but are currently forbidden to.
Serious question time: Am I supposed to just accept that Orthodox Jews need their backwards biblical laws and mistreatment of women and electrical arc superstition to be happy people? Or do you think that is a just historical baggage, inertia, politics, culture, etc?
I’m not saying my opinion matters any, to you, to them or to anyone else, mind you.
While this is all in circles I will try one more time with this one … the motivation for the Haredim is not some pay off in the future no more than you presumptively do what you believe is right for a later pay off … it is the chance to hallow their lives as they live them. (There is some Eschatology, yes, but it is a minor concept, even to the Haredim.)
I’m not remotely Orthodox and have any desire to live that lifestyle, and have all the same complaints many do…
But saying that, the Orthodoxy I have met (in my family and not) are some of the happiest people I know. Sure, some feel constraint and frustration, but the most are genuinely happy.
Well, the hallowing doesn’t actually happen. If I think that eating sand will make the four-eyed God Marduk throw me a supportive gang-sign, that doesn’t mean that eating sand is positive. And I’ll grant that they do it because they think it’s right, but the reason they think it’s right, is that they think they’re acting in accordance with the desires of a being who has not been shown to exist.
I know that Jewish people don’t generally believe in a Christian-Style afterlife, but they do think that the Messiah will come and raise the dead and rule the world, right? That’s like a bit of heaven, right here on Earth. And I’m sure some number think about that carrot when the weight of years draw the end near.