Idiotic Orthodox Jewish Tradition Leads to Death of Seven Children

The BBQ Pit
161

Fully agreed.

And it is not the point that leaving a hot plate plugged in for two days is idiotic, it’s the point of leaving a hot plate plugged in for two days because you some the irrational and invisible.

I’d like to know what others in this house felt. I sincerely doubt the hot plate status was not noticed by someone else. Like, “Hey! We keeping this on for a reason?” “Yes, so we can have hot food without pissing off the creator!” “Oh, okay then.” (???)

This house fire was caused through the works of religion. The hot plate was plugged in, on purpose, for Sabbath purposes. If the hot plate was left on accidentally, it certainly is a tragedy. In this case, the expectation of religion and its rules is a tragedy and a travesty.

162

… for religious purposes.

163

No, for purposes of keeping food hot. Which also could have either 1) not been done at all, or 2) done some other, safer way. So, no, neither the hotplate nor the fire is the fault of the religion.

164

But the only reason the hotplate was left on was religion. If she had just heated food in the typical fashion, she’d be alive.

165

Your motivations are what you have stated they are. You think religions are stupid and the more ignorant you are about the belief the more stupid you think it is.

BUT if something is more familiar (or in your ignorance you think it is) to you then you are fine with it. A menorah does not strike you as absurd? Because you are familiar with decorating with fire? A menorah is not a friggin’ decoration. It is a religious ritual done by some fairly mindlessly out of tradition and by others because they are *commanded[/I ]to do so. What do you think Jews say when they light the Menorah? “Gosh this is pretty.”? No, they say “Blessed are You, Adonai our God, Sovereign of all, who hallows us with mitzvot, commanding us to kindle the Hanukkah lights.” (In Hebrew of course.)

What is absurd is the combination of your ignorance of why people of faith (even nominally so) do what they do and your arrogance in setting yourself as qualified to judge which of those beliefs is reasonable for someone else to hold.

You open up a Pit thread, attacking a religious belief, blaming a complete religious belief and group for something that IN NO WAY was caused by the religious belief any more than being unbuckled (which is not “simply the routine way that we travel”) on the way to church resulting in needless deaths is caused by religion. A bad decision made while doing something religiously motivated is not caused by the religious belief. You have zero understanding of why the Orthodox do what they do, zero interest in understanding, but you feel qualified to condemn them and their faith.

And you are shocked that you become the Pittee?

Dang how stupid ARE you?

Let me spell it out: posters here who thought it was funny that these kids “smoked” on Shabbat and post “Burn!” pictures as jokes in response to these deaths are not attacking anyone on this board. So they cool, right? No, they are seriously disturbed individuals who I am embarrassed belong to my species. Calling me personally a jerk or scum is not disturbed and is much less offensive than that. Insult me if you want and with the exception of certain “fighting words” (I think you can imagine what those might be) you won’t get much more than a smile out of me. Using a tragedy to further your personal intolerance of the faith of others? That gets me more pissed off.

No this is NOT the same as someone using homeopathic medicine in lieu of effective approaches. No this was not religion causing harm. This was inappropriate use of a hot plate causing harm because the risk was not understood. Religion did not cause the woman to not understand the risk.

Yes for the Orthodox the letter of The Law IS the spirit of the law and there is not spirit of the law other than that. There is no what God actually meant and did not say and there is no ability of humans to fathom what God’s reasons really were. To the Orthodox what matters is following The Law. Period. Full stop. Sure, it was up to humans (specifically Jewish scholars) to argue and debate about how to interpret The Law to changing times and new circumstances … and those scholars tended to err on the side of cautious interpretations. But for them following The Law is what matters.

I must disagree with TriPolar. They do not follow The Law out of fear of a plague if they do not. Not out of fear of monsters in the sky. Not in order to go to heaven. They follow The Law because they believe God said to and that is reason enough. God has granted them the opportunity to become more holy by giving Laws (mitzvot) to follow. They believe that as Jews they were Chosen for that task, to follow these Laws, and are honored to have been so Chosen, even with all the crap that has come with it. Taking advantage of that opportunity is its own end and done for no other reason than that.

Mind you the Orthodox perspective does not represent most of modern American Jewery. And the Haredi, the sect this family belonged to, are an extreme end of the Orthodox movment. They actually were formed in reaction to modern more secular Judaism and in particular in response to the Reform Movement. The status of women in many Haredi communities is, IMHO, abysmal. If being Jewish meant being Haredi I would no longer be a Jew. Fortunately it does not. (Although I am not much of a Jew by any Haredi assesment anyway, an apostate, much lower in their minds than a righteous Gentile or even some who are not so righteous.)

It must however be noted that what bothers me about any of those who believe that they possess the one pious path is generally the following:

Being completely sure of being in possession of the truth and that those who believe otherwise are, most generously, wrongheaded.

Feeling the need to broadcast how wrong those who think otherwise are and looking down on them.

A need to try to get others to think as they do.

On those counts you are a much worse fundamentalist than any Haredi.

166

And if she had heated food the way she did, but for some other reason than religion, then…what? Still dead, but somehow less stupid?

167

Presumably she knew better than to leave a hotplate on for a day unattended, in general life. If you leave a hotplate on unattended for a day because you forgot, it’s a sad mistake. If you know it’s foolish, and you do it anyway, because you’re trying to satisfy a myth made up by a guy who smelled like a hobo and thought 3=π, that’s more stupid, yes.

168

No disagreement, I was responding as if to a very dull minded child who was having a difficult time understanding less complex matters.

169

I think it’s incredible we’re still arguing about heating the food up, as if it were just a coincidence. No, Haredi are not required to eat hot food on the Sabbath. But it’s clear from the New York Times article that many or most of them prefer to eat hot food, and this is one of the ways they have found to be able to do it within the confines of their religious practice.

The house didn’t burn down on a Thursday night. If it did, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. It burned down on the Sabbath for a reason. A religious reason. A reason that many (most?) other families in the community also had piping hot food present in their house.

I probably missed it in this extremely long thread, but I know that my recently purchased range/oven has a Sabbath timer feature. Is this simply a case that these Haredi community members can’t afford an oven with this feature? Is it the poverty that ultimately leads to this risky behavior?

170

In my defense, my BURN! pic was posted in response to Ivory Tower chastising the poster who said the kids had smoked.

So get it, I said, BURN! because that poster got burned, as in humiliatingly chastised. So it’s like playing both sides of the situation.

Why did those kids get burned? Oh yeah, because their ma was so fucking brainwashed by her shitty religion that she thought flipping switches pisses of the creator of the fucking universe. :rolleyes:

171

The Haredim are religious extremists who do stupid things. Is there anything else to argue about? I am Jewish. I went to Hebrew school with people who were almost like them. Not quite but close enough in some ways. Can I say that I disliked the experience? Found davening (prayers) rather mindless? Hated the fact that we weren’t allowed to wear pants when it was freezing cold? Despised the silly dietary restrictions where my love of ham and cheese sandwiches was considered some sort of great moral offense? Loathed the insular culture and the odd emphasis on rules I thought were deeply stupid?

At the same time I still feel sorry for this poor woman and the lose of innocent kids. This is a terrible tragedy. I hope it leads to some much needed reinterpretation by rabbis about some rules so it does not happen again. No one deserves to die for their religious beliefs. The Haredim are a pain in the ass but they are mostly a harmless pain in the ass.

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what rule should be reinterpreted? The one that says you should not endanger human life, and that that rule trumps “Sabbath”?

Seriously, there is no rule that orthodox Jews are supposed to leave a hot plate unattended. She obviously didn’t realize how dangerous it was or she wouldn’t have done it, because that is against the standard rules.

173

More likely she knew it was dangerous, but trusted that imaginary cunt in space to protect her. Realistically, you can probably run a hotplate a hundred days in a row, and it probably won’t kill anyone. But it’s still more dangerous than you should accept. Especially when all you’re doing is placating your imaginary friend.

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I’m sorry I made fun of your stupid, kooky beliefs. Religion is special because faith and shit. Please give me back your fake respect.

175

Naw, there are rules about how to put out Sabbath candles, because technically you shouldn’t, but you might have to because it’s dangerous to leave them. There is no thought that God will protect you. Instead, you do a little dance around blowing them out, but you blow them out.

She just didn’t realize she was endangering the family with the hot plate.

176

It’s actually OK to leave the lights on all Sabbath, it’s flipping the switch that’s a no-no.

Or you could use motion-sensor activated lights. Which some gentiles also use for convenience.

There’s a couple different ways to NOT sit in the dark all Sabbath, which, thanks to modern technology, are safer than in the past.

177

As stated, neither I, nor the vast majority of American Jews, share these particular beliefs with the Haredim. Again, if being Jewish meant being Haredi I would not be Jewish. My personal religious beliefs are more of a God who does given’t a shit, sort of a Spinozan pantheism that in most circles would be classified as atheism. What I share with the Haredim is the perspective that it is what you do that matters for its own sake … my take on that plays out differently than theirs though.

I do however not feel the need to mock those who feel otherwise. Given that I do not want any fundamentalist of any stripe witnessing to me or others like me who do not share their beliefs, I find the converse just as disgusting, immature, and jerkish. And exploiting tragedy to proselytize (either belief or against belief) is despicable no matter which side does it.

178

I was responding to your appeal to false moderation, a common tactic. Being a moderate rational thinker does not require respecting supernatural beliefs or pretending they are no incongruent, irrespective of the consideration given by the other side.

Now to respond to the false equivalence of proselytizing against belief. It’s not. There’s no witnessing and no exploitation. The tradition is idiotic, whether it leads to tragedy or not. When that happens, it can naturally become a talking point on a message board where people meet to talk about, among other things, idiotic stuff.

179

Personally, I simply think your stated position is silly and illogical, on its own terms, and ought to be even to people who agree with you that religion is harmful bunk.

According to you, your goal (and that of Dawkins) is to attack the “special privilege” accorded religion. Fine, let’s take that as if it was serious, and as if your real goal were not simply using this tragedy for some “witnessing”.

Where is the “special privilege” in the activity undertaken here? Is anyone arguing that this family ought to be excused criticism for using a faulty unattended hot-plate, and failing to use smoke alarms, because of - religion?

Not as far as I can see - quite the opposite: everyone has pointed out that there were perfectly safe alternatives they could have used instead. If your goal is to attack “special privilege”, you have totally failed to identify any that requires attack in this story.

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Being a ‘moderate rational thinker’ does, however, require someone to understand the beliefs they are criticizing, and to understand things like cause and effect.

Religion did not ‘cause’ these deaths - unsafe use of a hot plate, and lack of fire alarms, was the ‘cause’. There is nothing inherently unsafe mandated by their religion that ‘caused’ this tragedy, so using this tragedy to advance the notion that religion is unsafe and stupid is unconvincing to a “rational thinker”, who is supposed to, you know, be all “rational” and stuff.

It is a perfect example of the informal fallacy of “begging the question”: it is only convincing if you assume for a premise that religion is stupid and dangerous.

There are plenty of non-religious reasons for heating food unattended (hell, I did it myself not three days ago, using a crock-pot). When using a safe method, it is perfectly safe. If undertaking the very same activity isn’t stupid and dangerous when done for non-religious reasons, how does it magically become evidence of stupidity and danger when done for religious reasons?