# Idle Curiosity re British royal succession **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 16, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618 "2011-04-16T16:27:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/61 "2011-04-18T10:48:11Z")
From Wiki… Prince of Wales (Welsh: Tywysog Cymru) is a title traditionally granted to the heir apparent to the reigning monarch of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the 15 other independent Commonwealth realms and Charles, as the Prince of Wales, is the present Duke of Cornwall, responsible for the duchy of Cornwall. So I guess that would make Charles’ full title something like… HRH The Prince of Whales AND Duke of Cornwall ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/62 "2011-04-18T11:02:55Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > No they’re not. I remember the wedding, their births, the toe sucking, the weight watchers advertisement and the reality show. > > If those two are in their 20s that would mean I am old and you should get off my lawn and stop spouting untrue information!! I realize you’re kidding/being funny but: they are 21 and almost 23, respectively. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/63 "2011-04-18T11:08:04Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > From Wiki… > > Prince of Wales (Welsh: Tywysog Cymru) is a title traditionally granted to the heir apparent to the reigning monarch of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the 15 other independent Commonwealth realms > and > > Charles, as the Prince of Wales, is the present Duke of Cornwall, responsible for the duchy of Cornwall. > > So I guess that would make Charles’ full title something like… > HRH The Prince of Whales AND Duke of Cornwall and such and such of Scotland…whatever. Britons and their shtick. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/64 "2011-04-18T12:01:45Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > +1 on this - I seem to remember that HRH The Prince of Wales resides with the next in line to the throne or something and Charlie only received the title upon his marriage? (yes, get off my damn lawn - I can also remember watching that wedding on TV) No. He became Prince of Wales when he was nine, but wasn’t invested in that title until he was 20. It was quite a big deal, but it was a long time before he got married. And the Duchy of Cornwall has nothing to do with the title the Prince of Wales. Cornwall automatically goes to the heir apparent, along with several other titles, but there’s nothing automatic about the title Prince of Wales. Prince William is a Prince of Wales but then he’s also a Prince of England and a Prince of London and a Prince of Mumping-on-the-Marsh, but that’s meaningless; when his father dies, he won’t inherit the title Prince of Wales. Odds are, when his father becomes King, he _will_ invest William as Prince of Wales, but that’s not guaranteed. If the Queen lives for another 20 years and William already has sons, Charles, in his short reign, might create his eldest grandson Prince of Wales instead. [/url=[http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/personalprofiles/theprinceofwales/biography/index.html](http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/personalprofiles/theprinceofwales/biography/index.html)]More info. [And here too.](http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/royalty_princeofwales.shtml) This is why it’s never good to depend on Wikipedia as a resource - it’s a starting point, not the be-all and end-all. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/65 "2011-04-18T12:10:10Z")
and what about the last king of scotland, the late idi amin dada? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/66 "2011-04-18T13:07:32Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > No. He became Prince of Wales when he was nine, but wasn’t invested in that title until he was 20. It was quite a big deal, but it was a long time before he got married. > > And the Duchy of Cornwall has nothing to do with the title the Prince of Wales. Cornwall automatically goes to the heir apparent, along with several other titles, but there’s nothing automatic about the title Prince of Wales. > > Prince William is a Prince of Wales but then he’s also a Prince of England and a Prince of London and a Prince of Mumping-on-the-Marsh, but that’s meaningless; when his father dies, he won’t inherit the title Prince of Wales. Odds are, when his father becomes King, he _will_ invest William as Prince of Wales, but that’s not guaranteed. If the Queen lives for another 20 years and William already has sons, Charles, in his short reign, might create his eldest grandson Prince of Wales instead. > > [/url=[http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/personalprofiles/theprinceofwales/biography/index.html](http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/personalprofiles/theprinceofwales/biography/index.html)]More info. [And here too.](http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/royalty_princeofwales.shtml) > > This is why it’s never good to depend on Wikipedia as a resource - it’s a starting point, not the be-all and end-all. Didn’t you kind of just say what a lot of us just said?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/67 "2011-04-18T13:19:42Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > So I guess that would make Charles’ full title something like… > > HRH The Prince of Whales AND Duke of Cornwall It’s not really his “full title.” It’s a series of titles. And it’s not hard to [look up](http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/personalprofiles/theprinceofwales/abouttheprince/titles): > [@](#): > > His Royal Highness Prince Charles Philip Arthur George, Prince of Wales, KG, KT, GCB, OM, AK, QSO, PC, ADC, Earl of Chester, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles and Prince and Great Steward of Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/68 "2011-04-18T13:21:11Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Didn’t you kind of just say what a lot of us just said?😕 No. If you read what I was quoting and the posts preceding it, the assertion was made that Charles received the title Prince of Wales on his marriage, and it was asked whether William will inherit the title when his father dies, which was incorrectly answered. You said what I said about Prince William n a way, except that you’re focusing on William being _a_ Prince of Wales, which is irrelevant. I’m not even going to get into the ‘Princess Royal taking over from Margaret’ misinformation. (Not you - another poster). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/69 "2011-04-18T13:32:44Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > as to the princess royal, it seems simpler. anne replaced margaret, the queen’s sister, when she married mark philips. The queen’s sister, Princess Margaret, never held the title “princess royal.” Neither did Elizabeth. > [@](#): > > i know american wallis simpson became duchess of windsor only after her two ex-husbands died (the brits must have checked and re-checked.) So far as I know, she became duchess of Windsor as soon as she married Edward. But she was never an “H.R.H.” ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/70 "2011-04-18T14:04:41Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > No. If you read what I was quoting and the posts preceding it, the assertion was made that Charles received the title Prince of Wales on his marriage, and it was asked whether William will inherit the title when his father dies, which was incorrectly answered. You said what I said about Prince William n a way, except that you’re focusing on William being _a_ Prince of Wales, which is irrelevant. > > I’m not even going to get into the ‘Princess Royal taking over from Margaret’ misinformation. (Not you - another poster). yeah. Somehow I think we’re being more serious about this than the OP was. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/71 "2011-04-18T14:11:47Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > yeah. Somehow I think we’re being more serious about this than the OP was. 😛 Oh, it has ample room for pedantry! The titles that come without land, voting rights or income merit little more than pedantry anyway, and that’s most of them these days. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/72 "2011-04-18T14:38:37Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > yeah. Somehow I think we’re being more serious about this than the OP was. 😛 Absolutely. 😉 Come, on, admit it: Don’t you think it was more fun (for distant onlookers!) when there were battles and betrayals and backstabbings and beheadings and all that stuff? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/73 "2011-04-18T16:55:09Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > The Queen would need to issue letters patent creating him Prince of Wales, the title cannot be inheirited. None of Charles’s other titles (Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, etc) would pass on to William since they can only be held by the _eldest son of a reigning monarch_. Anyone who’s heir apparent (as opposed to heir[ess] presumptive) can by styled Prince of Wales by the monarch, but it’s not automatic. Now if Prince Phillip was dead too his titles (Duke of Edinburgh, etc) would pass on to William (via Charles) because they operate just like any other peerage title. Thanks for the information, this is what I wanted to know. So if I understand correctly, Charles currently does not hold any title that can be inherited by his son at his death. And yes, I’m aware that William is styled as Prince William of Wales (and I believe Harry is also styled as Prince Henry of Wales), but what I was wondering was what would be needed to make William THE Prince of Wales. Now I have the answer. Another question, though: suppose Charles dies tomorrow. Are his children still styled as Prince XXX of Wales, as children of the (deceased) Prince of Wales? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/74 "2011-04-18T17:29:58Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > …Another question, though: suppose Charles dies tomorrow. Are his children still styled as Prince XXX of Wales, as children of the (deceased) Prince of Wales? Yes, they still retain their styles unless the Queen chooses to grant them higher ones. William is expected to be made a Duke on his wedding day. > [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > …i know american wallis simpson became duchess of windsor only after her two ex-husbands died (the brits must have checked and re-checked.) Nope, she became the Duchess of Windsor the moment she married the Duke of Windsor. Both ex-husbands were still alive. A woman automatically takes the feminine form of any title or style her husband has (though if she holds a higher one in her own right she can keep using it). The only special provision made for Wallis was that she wasn’t allowed to share her husband’s style as an “HRH” or the dignity “Princess Edward”. This restriction was including in the letters patent creating the former Edward VIII Duke of Windsor and (re)confirming _his_ status as a Prince. ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/75 "2011-04-18T20:26:02Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Charles is THE prince of Wales > while William is A prince of Wales No. You could say that Charles is a prince twice over. He’s a “Prince” as a son of the Sovereign. He’s **also** the “Prince of Wales” as the result of a specific creation. In contrast, William is a prince only once over. He’s a “Prince” as a son of a son of the Sovereign. There is only ever one “Prince of Wales”. It’s a personal title, not a category. The reason that William is “Prince William of Wales” is not because the formula is “Prince … of Wales”. Rather, the formula is (a) “Prince …” + (b) “of Wales”. The first part is because of William’s relationship to the Sovereign, the second part is a description (for want of a better word) taken from his father’s most senior title. That’s why I gave the example of Beatrice: she’s (a) “Princess …” because of her relationship to the Sovereign, while (b) “of York” is taken from her father’s most senior title. Beatrice is not a “Princess of York”, and William is not a “Prince of Wales”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/76 "2011-04-18T20:43:28Z")
It might be useful to think of it in terms of the German terms “Fürst” and “Prinz.” A Fürst is a “prince” in terms of the nobleman with some kind of rights over a principality. A Prinz is a “prince” in terms of a member of a royal family. The title “Prince of Wales” is a Fürst-type prince, but the titles “The Prince Charles” or “The Prince William of Wales” are Prinz-type titles. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/77 "2011-04-18T21:44:58Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Nope, she became the Duchess of Windsor the moment she married the Duke of Windsor. Both ex-husbands were still alive. A woman automatically takes the feminine form of any title or style her husband has (though if she holds a higher one in her own right she can keep using it). The only special provision made for Wallis was that she wasn’t allowed to share her husband’s style as an “HRH” or the dignity “Princess Edward”. This restriction was including in the letters patent creating the former Edward VIII Duke of Windsor and (re)confirming _his_ status as a Prince. She was apparently royally pissed about the lack of HRH, and styled herself thus in her own household. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/78 "2011-04-18T22:00:24Z")
> [@A.Gwilliam](#): > > No. > > You could say that Charles is a prince twice over. He’s a “Prince” as a son of the Sovereign. He’s **also** the “Prince of Wales” as the result of a specific creation. > > In contrast, William is a prince only once over. He’s a “Prince” as a son of a son of the Sovereign. > > There is only ever one “Prince of Wales”. It’s a personal title, not a category. > > The reason that William is “Prince William of Wales” is not because the formula is “Prince … of Wales”. Rather, the formula is (a) “Prince …” + (b) “of Wales”. The first part is because of William’s relationship to the Sovereign, the second part is a description (for want of a better word) taken from his father’s most senior title. That’s why I gave the example of Beatrice: she’s (a) “Princess …” because of her relationship to the Sovereign, while (b) “of York” is taken from her father’s most senior title. > > Beatrice is not a “Princess of York”, and William is not a “Prince of Wales”. gggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr you’re missing my point. The OP asked if he would become prince of wales. He also seemed rather confused about who gets a title and how. I said he already was - rather snarky, but true. he’s william, prince of wales by proxy of his father being The prince of wales. [The Prince of Wales - Prince William](http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/personalprofiles/princewilliamprinceharry/princewilliam/) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/79 "2011-04-18T22:06:48Z")
Again, he’s not “William, Prince of Wales.” He’s “Prince William of Wales.” And there’s no pesky at stake here. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618/80 "2011-04-18T22:11:54Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > . . . a giant flaming meteor hurtles down into them. Charles, with his big ears and better agility, would have enough warning to get out of the way. The Queen, with an 85-year-old body and short legs, would be a sitting duck. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-curiosity-re-british-royal-succession/578618.md?page=5)