# Idle Speculation on Race and Racism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660 "2015-03-10T01:36:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/41 "2015-03-10T17:01:40Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > All we know for sure is that whether people are white, yellow, or brown, they prefer lighter-skinned people. Nonsense again. We have plenty of evidence of individuals prefering darker-skinned as well. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/42 "2015-03-10T17:42:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Of course there are multiple reasons – I’m just refuting the assertion that there is some inborn, natural preference among all or most humans for light skin. There’s not, and the existence of lots of dark and very-dark skinned populations is proof of this. Now you’re being lazy.🙂 You’re not refuting, you’re rebutting. This is an argument neither of us can win. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/43 "2015-03-10T17:48:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Now you’re being lazy.🙂 You’re not refuting, you’re rebutting. This is an argument neither of us can win. There’s no evidence that specifically points to an ‘inborn preference’ for humans. There’s plenty of evidence (chiefly, the existence of dark and very dark groups that have been around for long periods of time) that conflicts with this hypothesis. Various aspects of history and culture fully explain colorism without any need for an “inborn preference”. An “inborn preference” is not compatible with the existence of very dark groups who stay very dark for millennia. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/44 "2015-03-10T17:55:38Z")
That is evidence against my hypothesis. Evidence against yours is that African-Americans don’t generally practice self-loathing. Oppressed minority groups that have been successfully taught to hate themselves seek assimilation at all costs. Oppressed minority groups that have had their pride buttressed by an “us against the world” mentality do the opposite. And as I said from the beginning, the concept of light being good and dark being evil is universal. There are exactly zero cultures that believe the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/45 "2015-03-10T17:58:40Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And as I said from the beginning, the concept of light being good and dark being evil is universal. There are exactly zero cultures that believe the opposite. Doesn’t Lucifer have some postive light associations? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/46 "2015-03-10T17:58:43Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Again, the only example I can give is anecdotal, so it’s not very scientific. But growing up in Asia, there were women would carry parasols to avoid getting tanned. They’d wear long detachable sleeves made for the purpose of covering their forearms from sunshine. Even some men underwent cosmetic skin-lightening, I think. I’ve heard of Asian people trying to keep soy sauce out of some of their childrens’ diets because it was thought soy sauce made the skin darker. There is simply this beauty ideal that lighter skin = better. But you’ll also see descriptions of how Asians viewed Europeans when they first encountered them. The usual accounts were that the Europeans were ugly and had skin the color of fish or corpses. There certainly was no instinctive attraction to white skin. The ancient Greeks and Romans also had no attraction for lighter-skinned people. While they were white themselves, they were darker complectioned Mediterraneans. They saw fairer skinned Celts and Germans and Scythians are barbarians. The bias against fair skinned people was enough that Roman law required prostitutes to wear blonde wigs so they would be distinguishable from respectable dark-haired women. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/47 "2015-03-10T18:03:01Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That is evidence against my hypothesis. Evidence against yours is that African-Americans don’t generally practice self-loathing. Oppressed minority groups that have been successfully taught to hate themselves seek assimilation at all costs. Oppressed minority groups that have had their pride buttressed by an “us against the world” mentality do the opposite. > > And as I said from the beginning, the concept of light being good and dark being evil is universal. There are exactly zero cultures that believe the opposite. Self-loathing has nothing to do with my “hypothesis”. Self-loathing is not required for culture and history to influence populations towards things like colorism. As to your “light-good” and “dark-bad” assertion: I’m not taking your word for it. You don’t know the beliefs of all cultures in all of history. Further, this doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with skin color. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/48 "2015-03-10T18:05:05Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > For people who deny that there is a natural preference for lighter skin across cultures…why then would dark skinned cultures not naturally prefer dark skin? There is no incentive to prefer lighter skin, yet they often do, and I think even millennia ago in Asia, lighter skin was preferred, so this isn’t a modern Western invention. > But at the same time, while a preference for lighter skin may be “natural,” that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be fought. Everybody (except albinos) tans. Light skin represents something other than an agricultural or construction lifestyle. For millennia, that was the mark of the educated and privileged. This is not remotely a mystery. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/49 "2015-03-10T18:07:27Z")
As for the existence of dark skinned people, a minority of people prefer the dark skinned. Which might explain why there are a few hundred million black people and like 2 billion Asians. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/50 "2015-03-10T18:12:34Z")
This shouldn’t be that hard of a question – there are plenty of communities in which lighter skin is not necessarily preferred (especially in the last 100 years). Tanning is very popular in America and Europe. “Black is beautiful” has caught on in many scattered communities. Celebrities like Beyoncé and Naomi Campbell are considered as beautiful and alluring as anyone in the world. Barack and Michelle Obama are widely admired for their physical appearance and fashion sense. Colorism can be entirely explained by history and culture, and it’s not even particularly mysterious: it has been a combination of things like slavery, colonialism, prestige for outdoor-vs-indoor work, and American/European media. It doesn’t require “self-loathing” (though there exist people who loathe themselves or “their kind”), and it doesn’t require any inborn preference for lighter skin. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/51 "2015-03-10T18:13:36Z")
It doesn’t require it, but the fact that it exists worldwide can’t just be blamed on what Europeans have done, since Europeans haven’t dominated every part of the world. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/52 "2015-03-10T18:13:37Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > As for the existence of dark skinned people, a minority of people prefer the dark skinned. Which might explain why there are a few hundred million black people and like 2 billion Asians. That’s utterly ridiculous, especially when you consider that about a billion of those Asians are frickin’ _dark-skinned_! ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/53 "2015-03-10T18:13:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But you’ll also see descriptions of how Asians viewed Europeans when they first encountered them. The usual accounts were that the Europeans were ugly and had skin the color of fish or corpses. There certainly was no instinctive attraction to white skin. That’s true. Perhaps these Asians felt that white Caucasian was \*too \*white. The “ideal” whiteness that many Asians with their parasols, skin whitening cream, and long sleeves seem to be aiming for is some sort of light yellow, not actual white-people white. If they did end up with the exact same hue as a white Swede or Norwegian, they’d probably think they took it too far. ---
**Author:** ![TCMF-2L](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tcmf-2l/32/16553_2.png) [@TCMF-2L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TCMF-2L)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/54 "2015-03-10T18:13:55Z")
My cite about albinos in Tanzania being considered powerful magic by the local witches seems to have failed to impress. Even though according to wikipedia 98% of albinos die before the age of 40 by preventable reasons. The lighter skin means something to someone. But while checking wikipedia for examples of albinos in other cultures I read on the page about albinos in popular culture: > **[Albinism in popular culture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albinism_in_popular_culture)** > > Albinism organisations and others have expressed criticism over the portrayal of individuals with albinism in popular culture, specifically in movies and fictional works, citing the overwhelmingly negative depiction. There is concern that such depictions could increase social bias and discrimination against individuals with albinism. This phenomenon is often referred to as the "evil albino" plot device. > The "evil albino" stereotype or stock character is a villain in fiction who is depicted as ... the following: > [@](#): > > Most “evil albinos” appear in works of fiction from the West. In fiction from Japan, _ **where ideals call for as pale skin as possible** _, characters with albinism or associated traits are more frequently sympathetic[12] than in American and British fiction So I am unsure whether that means “In Japan ideals call for as pale skin as possible” or “In Japanese _ **fiction** _ ideals call for as pale skin as possible” but it does serve as a data point that, in some non-white cultures, pale skin is seen as better. TCMF-2L ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/55 "2015-03-10T18:14:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s utterly ridiculous, especially when you consider that about a billion of those Asians are frickin’ _dark-skinned_! I left that billion out.🙂 I was only counting Chinese, Japanese, Siberians, Thais, Koreans, etc. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/56 "2015-03-10T18:14:59Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It doesn’t require it, but the fact that it exists worldwide can’t just be blamed on what Europeans have done, since Europeans haven’t dominated every part of the world. No one has “just” blamed it on Europeans. There have been many factors, and I just mentioned them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/57 "2015-03-10T18:16:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I left that billion out.🙂 I was only counting Chinese, Japanese, Siberians, Thais, Koreans, etc. You left the billion out that totally invalidates your statement… ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/58 "2015-03-10T18:16:34Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Nonsense again. We have plenty of evidence of individuals prefering darker-skinned as well. I think the important thing is percentages, not raw numbers. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/59 "2015-03-10T18:29:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think the important thing is percentages, not raw numbers. “There are more people who prefer lighter skin than darker skin” is not the premise of the thread or what I’ve been arguing against. The OP was about the possibility of a genetic disposition to distrust dark-skinned people and adaher followed up with a claim that a preference for lighter skin “seems to be a universal human trait that we’ve evolved”. But feel free to keep playing silly games. I’m out. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660/60 "2015-03-10T18:37:19Z")
I think it isn’t as much pigment per se as it is neotenous traits which people find cuter and maybe more trustworthy?en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny Black people don’t seem to retain as much Neoteny as do Asians and Whites so maybe that would be a better explanation than skin pigment alone, it’s a combination of traits that are biological and also social constructs. For the record I am most attracted to women that have Mediterranean features, olive skin Italians and Hispanics and lightly tanned Asians. Black skin is just too dark for me and I also feel it does have a kind of psychological effect, that causes a kind of negative filter in the brain both consciously and subconsciously. Part of it is probably viewing them as the other, unlike me and therefore bad. For some reason when I was in the Army I often thought that the darker skinned black women looked angrier or cruel somehow and very often in reality they were some of the nicest women I met when I actually spoke with them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/idle-speculation-on-race-and-racism/714660.md?page=4)