Am I the only one to find it ironic that someone named ** In Conceivable ** is contributing to this thread? 
I gave you a gender-neutral answer which you ignored. I understand what you are trying to do with your question. You want me to say yes so you can say “Ah-Ha! Women shouldn’t be allowed to have abortions then.” or say no so you can say “Ah-Ha! Men should be allowed to opt-out of being a parent.”
How can you consent to be a parent? You either are a parent or you aren’t a parent. If you have a born child then you are a parent. A man isn’t a parent while a women is pregnant. Men don’t pay child support before a baby is born.
I use birth control!
DrLizardo,
For reasons from my last thread, I do not really believe scare tactics will be effective. It might help a little but not much. However, it would be more effective thwacking both.
I believe that the woman is sufficiently scared. She has to have the child and raise it. The sex drive must be strong indeed because, if I was a woman, I would be terrified of having sex and getting pregnant. I am pro-choice but don’t think I could have an abortion myself. On top of this, I would have to raise the child, and from the support payments I’ve seen women getting, the mother has the bigger burden to carry. A few hundred dollars a month is peanuts for a child but considered a large support payment by many.
So, I believe that if you are to get tough, it should focus more on men. If they are unwilling or unable to support the child then forced military service for 20 years with no pay? Hmmmm…
Hmmm. AndyMurph: I certainly agree that pregnant women are often scared. I’ve know more than a few men highly scared by an unplanned pregnancy too. Of course the male/female differential is largely moot because we’re talking about being scared BEFORE a pregnancy (and those things which lead to pregnancy) occur. In my experience Men and Women are equally obtuse about the consequences of their acts BEFORE an actual pregnancy occurs.
I do, however, think it would be good to “up” the level of “consequence” for a man choosing to “opt out” under the setup I proposed.
While I think the woman’s choice to end the pregnancy, i.e. abortion, is not as heinous, horrible and draconian as has been portrayed by some here, I’m NOT saying (as I’ve been mischaracterized) it’s a walk in the park, easy-breezy thing. So perhaps something more serious than “signing a piece of paper” is relevant for the man in this situation… Not sure what that consequence should be…
A term in the military (though I’d say not 20 years with no pay) seems like one helluva way to make sure it’s not a decision taken lightly! Perhaps overkill. Maybe “community service” like that imposed on low-level criminals would be more realistic while still imposing a serious burden on the choice… Another thought is that men “opting out” have to opt out not only of that particular child’s rearing, but ANY child’s rearing (i.e. get a vasectomy).
Despite words that have been put in my mouth here, my intention was never for the man to walk away “scot free,” to have an “easy no brainer” decision here, or to suffer no consequence for undertaking an “opt out.” I definitely did NOT build this into my original proposal well enough!
Well, again I am going to take a middle position on this. If a man makes his desire for an abortion known, and the woman refuses- that should not give him an “out” for child support. However- it should be taken into consideration by the Judge when calculating it.
If a man raised a child- as his- which turns out not to be- then I think any further child support is debateable. Not just an automatic “yes or no”, but depending on those old “facts & circumstances”. If the woman really thought is was his- that’s one thing, but if she knew all along it wasn’t and just roped him in as he earned good money, and so was a good candidate for a cash cow- and he, being a gentleman & good citizen went along with it… then he should only be “on the hook” for a few more years, with decreasing amounts (assuming he no longer is raising the child “as his”, of course). Being stuck for the full amount for another 15 years is unfair. But, for a decreasing amount for the next 3 years is fair.
Coming to a man a year or so after, with your hand out for child support isn’t fair. But maybe she really thought another man was the father, or circumstances have changed. This needs to be taken into account. Perhaps a lower amount for a lesser period.
If a man gives up all rights- it does not mean he gives up all responsibilities. However, of course, his cash support should be lessened.
If a woman deliberately decives a man into a belief she is on birth control, and she concieves by him, and refuses an abortion- his resposibility should be minimal. After all, fraud was commited.
The problem here is that it has been treated as “black or white”. Either a man pays nada, or is responsible for the full amount for a full 18 years. Some middle ground needs to be included for fairness.
So yes- a man does have responsibility. When “Mr Happy” “comes out to play”, and is let to play without his raincoat- then you have to bear some responsibility for the outcome. However, fairness would dictate a reduced responsibilty depending on facts & circumstances, as after all, the woman did accept the “play”.
Dr. Lizardo,
Community service just won’t cut it. You see, the government/taxpayers will have to help support the child if the man is unable or unwilling.
Twenty years in the military, unpaid, sounds good… 
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by DrLizardo *
A term in the military (though I’d say not 20 years with no pay) seems like one helluva way to make sure it’s not a decision taken lightly! Perhaps overkill. Maybe “community service” like that imposed on low-level criminals would be more realistic while still imposing a serious burden on the choice… Another thought is that men “opting out” have to opt out not only of that particular child’s rearing, but ANY child’s rearing (i.e. get a vasectomy).
[/quoute]
But then you are putting requirements on a man that aren’t on a women making it in your words “unfair” again. How come women get to have a abortion but then can still get pregnant again but men have to have a vasectomy? It isn’t faaaairrrr. It is no more right to force a man to get a vasectomy then it is to try to force women to choose an abortion by withholding support.
I believe that you did not intend for men to walk away scot free. But the fact is that if they can “opt out” they will get to walk away scot free.
Okay, I COULD admit that I find little to object to in DrDeth’s post. I COULD admit that my scenario is a debate point purposely set up as a black/white situation to elicit discussion on a principles and theories plane and I KNOW it’s not real world. I COULD admit that DrDeth’s situations outlined above WOULD be a dramatic improvement over the status quo.
But that wouldn’t be any fun, now would it… 
LOL DrLizardo. If you don’t admit it then I won’t either. After all, what fun is it to agree in a debate?
Get out of here DrDerth. We can’t have the voice of the middle ground getting in the way of the extremes!
I would agree to these “Unwanted child” scenarios
a) Woman gets pregnant. Father does not want the child. Woman aborts pregnancy. Father pays for abortion.
b) Woman gets pregnant. Father does not want the child. Woman keeps child assumes full and complete responsibility for child. Father pays medical fees as compensotory for getting her pregnant. No child support or visititations or parantal role for father.
c) Woman gets pregnant. Father does not want the child. Woman does not notify father until beyond 2nd trimester which is too late for abortion. If mother does not want parental duries, give child up for adoption. Woman and father split medical fees.
Moral: Just say no.
In Conceivable:
(Two posts back):
You’re the one (apparently) with a problem “forcing” a woman to have an abortion by withholding support. I don’t have that issue and thus your ‘disparity’ doesn’t seem so to me.
Of course, vasectomy is admittedly a ‘very long-term’ consequence! Perhaps someone has a better suggestion, or the “community service” model is more appropriate?
(One post back): he he he. Durned reasonable moderates. Ruin all our fun…
I see your point DrLizardo. If you are worried about “forcing” women to have an abortion then why worry about “forcing” a man to have a vasectomy. We are both very consistant with our views there.
My point was only that by requiring a man to get a vasectomy things will still be “unfair”, just unfair in a different way. Why can a women get an abortion and then have another kid but a man has to have a vasectomy? Why can a women have an abortion and then go home to eat ice cream but a man has to do 100 hours of community service?
Death to the moderates…release the Auks!
Slayer,
Adoption isn’t a guarantee. Of course if you can find someone to voluntarily accept your burden then you are off the hook. That goes without saying. However, CAN you find someone to voluntarily take the burden?
Uggh! “AREN’T worred about “forcing” a women…”
“Deth”, not “Derth”.
Right- I’m sorry, what the hell was I thinking of? :smack:
But you know, maybe a little “moderation” could work it’s way into the “never-never land” of family Court, for the good of us all.
No- not the auks… anything but the auks!!!:eek:
We’re deep in the realm of subjective perceptions here:
One could equally well say “why does a woman have to have her body invaded and traumatized while the man just has to go pick up some garbage for a few hours”…
I don’t think there’s any solution to THIS particular issue. It’s pure opinion and probably highly UNsubject to change.
But amusing that your quoted text above is probably closer to my actual viewpoint (though I don’t think an abortion is THAT much a romp in the park), whereas my hypothetical contrast to it is likely closer to your actual viewpoint, no?
I think that we finally agree on something DrLizardo.
I don’t think we are suppose to do that in an abortion debate thread.
So very sorry, ** In Conceivable **. This is what I get for posting in two abortion threads at the same time.
I, DrLizardo, do hereby relinquish all claim and deny all responsibility for the agreement that has been conceived by In Conceivable and myself, and will not be held responsible in any way for the raising, care and feeding of said point of agreement.
I will now go pick up garbage.