# If a real truth serum created should the 5th amendment go out the window? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2005, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148 "2005-11-15T12:43:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/41 "2005-11-15T18:16:42Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Aha Diogenes has come through. This is the arguement against that I was looking for. > > But the amendment was crafted at a time when no such perfect truth serum existed or was even contemplated. > > If it existed and I were accused and innocent, I’d clamor for the drug. So would > a million other innocent accused. Only the guilty would fear this drug. > > Thank you Diogenes for cutting through everything. 😕 Nothing against **Diogenes** , but didn’t **AFAIKnow** point this particular argument out to you in Post #8? ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/42 "2005-11-15T18:16:43Z")
“Only the guilty would fear this drug…” And only a witch would fear the fire. Only the unclean would fear the bible. Only the guilty fear the law…war is peace. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/43 "2005-11-15T18:19:50Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > In the US you are assumed innocent until proven guilty. Attempting to force someone to prove thier guilt assumes guilt. Would you like for the cops to be able to bust into your house and do a search just because a crime was committed on your street? Only the guilty should fear such a search right? Actually, giving someone a truith serum leaves open the question of guilt or innocence – you are seeking to find out IF they did it, not simply confirm that they did it. If the person says “No, didn’t do it,” then they are released as innocent. No presumption of guilt there. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/44 "2005-11-15T18:21:34Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > Forcing someone to take a truth syrum is a coerced confession. While it may not be as violent as a torture method, it is still invading the rights (plural) of an assumed innocent person. If they didn’t do it, they don’t confess. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/45 "2005-11-15T18:21:38Z")
Ever hear of 'Burden of Proof"? The state has to prove their case. To me, using this serum is nothing more than throwing a witch into a lake to see if she floats or not. Did you ever notice that people convicted of crimes are not given penalties for perjury? (if they testified) That is because the state has the responsibility to prove someone is guilty and not the individual has the responsibility to prove their innocence. The thing is that ‘truth’ is subjective, not objective. If a person believes they are innocent, they will say it, even with the serum. Just like crazy people think it is the truth that aliens are living in their basement. I wouldn’t want this for anybody. I wouldn’t say ‘give it to Ken Lay and make him talk’ or say, ‘give it to that suspected child killer and make him talk’. If the state can’t prove a case, then the person is free to go. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/46 "2005-11-15T18:21:58Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > My point is why is that a right to begin with? I see no use for it except for the tortured confession. My drug makes the torture redundant. > > Assuming my drug is real, why is this right (prohibition of self-incrimination) necessary? “I will say it for the umpteenth time.” _To protect the i **nnocent** _. Even someone who committed a crime is innocent until proven guilty. > [@](#): > > But the amendment was crafted at a time when no such perfect truth serum existed or was even contemplated. The \*sine qua non \* hasn’t changed. Just because your truth syrum has been invented, that doesn’t take away the presumed innocense of the accused. > [@](#): > > If it existed and I were accused and innocent, I’d clamor for the drug. So would a million other innocent accused. Only the guilty would fear this drug. I sure as hell wouldn’t. I would only if I were found guilty and was innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/47 "2005-11-15T18:23:00Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > The problem is NO drug is 100% effective on 100% of the population. I realize this is a fantasy OP, but let’s at least try to keep it as “honest” as possible. If that’s the case, what measures if any do you **BwanaBob** place to ensure those who are immune/resistant to the drug receive a fair trial? > > What it there’s serious side effects? > > What if I don’t believe the side effects are worth it? Am I now considered quilty, because as you said the innocent have nothing to fear… Maybe in the not-so-distant future they’ll discover a locality of the brain that has to do with truth-telling and lying, and find ways to use it to determine truth infallibly. ---
**Author:** ![audreyayn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@audreyayn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audreyayn)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/48 "2005-11-15T18:24:45Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > If found Guilty, the “juice” could be used prior to sentencing. If the accused _still_ proclaims his innocence, he gets an “unproven” verdict. I asume this would be added to US law. Then juries would be much more inclined to find people guilty, assuming that if they messed up the juice would catch it. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/49 "2005-11-15T18:26:32Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > 😕 Nothing against **Diogenes** , but didn’t **AFAIKnow** point this particular argument out to you in Post #8? Not in those exact words. He clouded the issue by throwing in the usual gestapo police breaking down the doors scenario, which I prohibited from the get-go. Diogenes stated that the original intent was to make the state bear 100% of the burden of proof and the accused need not take any pro-active part in proving either guilt or innocense. I was saying that if the drug existed, that the accused not needing to take part should be re-evaluated. Offering the accused a quick exit from custody via the drug would be a good thing. Only a fool (or the guilty) wouldn’t want to take it. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/50 "2005-11-15T18:27:44Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Maybe in the not-so-distant future they’ll discover a locality of the brain that has to do with truth-telling and lying, and find ways to use it to determine truth infallibly. But is “the truth” localized in the brain? Why presume that the truth is locked in there somewhere, and is only filtered willfully or without intent by other brain functions or processes? ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/51 "2005-11-15T18:31:23Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Actually, giving someone a truith serum leaves open the question of guilt or innocence – you are seeking to find out IF they did it, not simply confirm that they did it. If the person says “No, didn’t do it,” then they are released as innocent. No presumption of guilt there. To take away someone’s Fifth Amendment rights, as **BwanaBob** clearly thinks is important in his fantasy, is a presumption of guilt. It is also an invasion of privacy, against due process, and a coerced confession, or non-confession if you prefer. > [@](#): > > If they didn’t do it, they don’t confess. Their rights are still taken away. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/52 "2005-11-15T18:32:17Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > I sure as hell wouldn’t. I would only if I were found guilty and was innocent. Other than to just stand there on a principle, why the hell not? Why would you want to waste your time and the court’s time going through a needless trial if you were innocent and had available a drug that would instantly free you? ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/53 "2005-11-15T18:34:13Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Only the guilty should fear such a truth serum. Why is it that people continually make this argument? This argument is made every time there is an issue of governmental invasion into one’s personal sphere. The argument defies common sense. **BwanaBob** , I don’t know about you, but there are plenty of things I wish to keep secret that are not criminal. I have a great deal of fear of a truth serum, and what is driving that fear is not fear of imprisonment. What if you are given the serum to find out if you stole from the office’s petty cash? It turns out that you didn’t, but under the truth serum you let slip that you’ve been boning the boss’ husband. Nothing criminal about that, but it sure as hell ain’t good for you. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/54 "2005-11-15T18:35:57Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Ever hear of 'Burden of Proof"? The state has to prove their case. To me, using this serum is nothing more than throwing a witch into a lake to see if she floats or not. It’s postulated that the truth serum is scientifically valid. I could see where a truth serum or a techno equivalent to it might not be too far in the future. A technique that could quickly and easily sort out the liars from the truth-tellers would go FAR in the administration of justice. Also, might not be a bad idea to give it to women who are accusing men of rape. Those who were found to be telling the truth would have law enforcement totally on their side, those who were lying about the rape would be charged with filing false charges. Might make for a very different justice system – I suspect, a much better one, so long as the tech is indeed valid. > [@](#): > > The thing is that ‘truth’ is subjective, not objective. If a person believes they are innocent, they will say it, even with the serum. Just like crazy people think it is the truth that aliens are living in their basement. They might believe they are innocent, but when Karl Rove is asked “Did you tell Robert Novak that the woman married to Joseph Wilson was a CIA agent?” then he would have to say “Yes.” A good thing all 'round. > [@](#): > > I wouldn’t want this for anybody. I wouldn’t say ‘give it to Ken Lay and make him talk’ or say, ‘give it to that suspected child killer and make him talk’. If the state can’t prove a case, then the person is free to go. An effective truth serum of equivalent would be an invaluable tool in proving a case. I don’t know why you’re so addicted to the dog and pony show model of justice we have now that FREQUENTLY lets the guilty go and convicts the innocent. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/55 "2005-11-15T18:36:49Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > 😕 Nothing against **Diogenes** , but didn’t **AFAIKnow** point this particular argument out to you in Post #8? How about the very first reply to this thread (post #2)??? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/56 "2005-11-15T18:38:47Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > To take away someone’s Fifth Amendment rights, as **BwanaBob** clearly thinks is important in his fantasy, is a presumption of guilt. It is also an invasion of privacy, against due process, and a coerced confession, or non-confession if you prefer. > > Their rights are still taken away. You keep assuming guilt on the part of the suspect. No guilt, no confession, coerced or otherwise. The Fifth Amendment was created in a time when no truth serum existed, and all we had to sort out the liars from the truth-teller was evidence and logic and testimony. It made sense then. It doesn’t now. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/57 "2005-11-15T18:41:17Z")
> [@SuaSponte](#): > > Why is it that people continually make this argument? This argument is made every time there is an issue of governmental invasion into one’s personal sphere. > The argument defies common sense. **BwanaBob** , I don’t know about you, but there are plenty of things I wish to keep secret that are not criminal. I have a great deal of fear of a truth serum, and what is driving that fear is not fear of imprisonment. > > What if you are given the serum to find out if you stole from the office’s petty cash? It turns out that you didn’t, but under the truth serum you let slip that you’ve been boning the boss’ husband. Nothing criminal about that, but it sure as hell ain’t good for you. > > Sua Why do you people insist on dragging in further scary scenarios? How many times must I stipulate how and when the drug may be used? You know what, I have no more interest in this. I outlined a specific situation and right away all the slippery slopers show up. You all can blather on about how much you love that the state has to prove everything…gee it’s great to be you where you can do sneaky things and be so happy that no one can find out… yadda yadda feh! Mods please close this train wreck. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/58 "2005-11-15T18:41:18Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Other than to just stand there on a principle, why the hell not? > > Why would you want to waste your time and the court’s time going through a needless trial if you were innocent and had available a drug that would instantly free you? Because people are not infallible. Why would you trust your life to those that are accusing you of a crime you didn’t commit? Why would you trust your life to something you say while you are drugged? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/59 "2005-11-15T18:42:03Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > How about the very first reply to this thread (post #2)??? Certainly that is an eminently reasonable argument and explanation, but **BwanaBob** seemed to be responding to an explicit description of the suspension of presumtion of innocence, which AFAIK was first raised by **AFAIKnow**. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/60 "2005-11-15T18:42:33Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > Because people are not infallible. Why would you trust your life to those that are accusing you of a crime you didn’t commit? Why would you trust your life to something you say while you are drugged? Because I stipulated that the drug is infallible - can’t you read? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148.md?page=4)