# If a real truth serum created should the 5th amendment go out the window? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2005, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148 "2005-11-15T12:43:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/61 "2005-11-15T18:44:33Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Because I stipulated that the drug is infallible - can’t you read? The drug may be, but people aren’t. Are you postulating a drug where you could ask "Is there alien life ? " and get the right answer ? ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/62 "2005-11-15T18:45:07Z")
I don’t think, magical truth serum or not, that any questioning could ever be quite as simple or non-invasive as you seem to think. Think about the average series of questions involved in a trial or deposition. It’s incredibly detailed and specific. Part of the reason is to catch people in lies, yes, but part of it is also to make sure that there’s no room for ambiguity. A simple question like “did you commit the murder” might have a common sense answer, but it just as easily might not. Perhaps it was a killing in self defense, or an accident. In that case, the answer would be “no” under the law. Assuming that the truth serum is at least remotely possible, it would not imbue its taker with a sudden knowledge of the law. Therefore, the questioning would have to be more like current questioning. Where were you? What were you doing? etc. How would such a line of questioning _not_ reveal unrelated secrets one might want to keep? ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/63 "2005-11-15T18:48:23Z")
Actually I’m not going to quit this. You all seem to want a different scenario so I’ll give it to you. The drug exists same as before. But use is not compulsory. (your precious amendment stays intact) Many of the accused who are really innocent clamor for the drug, get it, and are freed. So the only one’s left who go to trial are a) the guilty b) the innocent who on principle refuse to take the drug. Don’t you think juries are going to really take a hard look at all accused at this point because they’re going to wonder “why the hell didn’t they take the drug that could free them in a heartbeat”. Sure you may be refusing on principle, but would it be worth it? ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/64 "2005-11-15T18:51:52Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > You keep assuming guilt on the part of the suspect. No guilt, no confession, coerced or otherwise. The Fifth Amendment was created in a time when no truth serum existed, and all we had to sort out the liars from the truth-teller was evidence and logic and testimony. It made sense then. It doesn’t now. No, I am assuming innocence. Why force someone who is innocent to take a drug against his will? Why take away their rights to privacy, due process, and silence? The law must assume innocence of the accused until proven guilty by due process. So, therefore, the state will only drug “innocent” people. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/65 "2005-11-15T18:54:10Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Certainly that is an eminently reasonable argument and explanation, but **BwanaBob** seemed to be responding to an explicit description of the suspension of presumtion of innocence, which AFAIK was first raised by **AFAIKnow**. I guess that’s how I interpreted: > [@SuaSponte](#): > > It is the obligation of the state to prove that a crime was committed… ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/66 "2005-11-15T18:58:35Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Don’t you think juries are going to really take a hard look at all accused at this point because they’re going to wonder “why the hell didn’t they take the drug that could free them in a heartbeat”. Sure you may be refusing on principle, but would it be worth it? Not waiving your rights cannot be used as a presumption of guilt. If a jury used that as an excuse to find someone guilty the judge would be compelled to call a mistrial. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/67 "2005-11-15T19:03:37Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > Not waiving your rights cannot be used as a presumption of guilt. If a jury used that as an excuse to find someone guilty the judge would be compelled to call a mistrial. You and your precious due process… ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/68 "2005-11-15T19:11:25Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > It’s postulated that the truth serum is scientifically valid. I could see where a truth serum or a techno equivalent to it might not be too far in the future. A technique that could quickly and easily sort out the liars from the truth-tellers would go FAR in the administration of justice. Also, might not be a bad idea to give it to women who are accusing men of rape. Those who were found to be telling the truth would have law enforcement totally on their side, those who were lying about the rape would be charged with filing false charges. > > Might make for a very different justice system – I suspect, a much better one, so long as the tech is indeed valid. > > They might believe they are innocent, but when Karl Rove is asked “Did you tell Robert Novak that the woman married to Joseph Wilson was a CIA agent?” then he would have to say “Yes.” A good thing all 'round. > > An effective truth serum of equivalent would be an invaluable tool in proving a case. I don’t know why you’re so addicted to the dog and pony show model of justice we have now that FREQUENTLY lets the guilty go and convicts the innocent. You know, at one time, it was a valid medical proceedure to jab an ice pick up someone’s head and thrash up the brain to deal with their psychosis. The thing is that many people may claim that the serum works perfect, even medical professionals, but it may still not work. You can ask a guy, ‘Did you abuse your spouse?’ and he may very well tell you ‘Nope’ even though he did ‘correct her’ a few times. Plus, I don’t know all the ins and outs of the law. I may not know if I’m guilty or innocent. Did I commit murder or manslaughter? If I know that my actions caused the death of someone I might very well admit to murder and get a much stiffer penalty. And yes the 5th admendment is precious to me. Why isn’t it precious to you? If this drug was available, and 'honesty is the best policy, then why not put it in the water supply? Imagine a used car salesman that couldn’t lie, or a politician, or the plumber when he gives you the estimate. Wouldn’t that make the world a better place? Why not give everyone a low level sedative so they won’t have vioulent outbursts? Why not make everyone tell the truth 100% of the time? ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/69 "2005-11-15T19:15:14Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > You know, at one time, it was a valid medical proceedure to jab an ice pick up someone’s head and thrash up the brain to deal with their psychosis. The thing is that many people may claim that the serum works perfect, even medical professionals, but it may still not work. > > You can ask a guy, ‘Did you abuse your spouse?’ and he may very well tell you ‘Nope’ even though he did ‘correct her’ a few times. > > Plus, I don’t know all the ins and outs of the law. I may not know if I’m guilty or innocent. Did I commit murder or manslaughter? If I know that my actions caused the death of someone I might very well admit to murder and get a much stiffer penalty. > And yes the 5th admendment is precious to me. Why isn’t it precious to you? If this drug was available, and 'honesty is the best policy, then why not put it in the water supply? Imagine a used car salesman that couldn’t lie, or a politician, or the plumber when he gives you the estimate. Wouldn’t that make the world a better place? Why not give everyone a low level sedative so they won’t have vioulent outbursts? Why not make everyone tell the truth 100% of the time? Your extreme scenario is pretty much what went on in that Liar movie didn’t it? Obviously we live in a world that relies on the little white lie. It’s the big lie that’s at issue here. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/70 "2005-11-15T19:17:58Z")
Another thought : Unless the drug _compels_ you to give detailed explanations, it would be quite easy to “lawyer” your way around it. For example, I kill somebody, and am asked “Did you kill Dave Smith ?”. I _say_ “no”, but I _mean_ “I didn’t, the bullet did.” _Technically_, that’s true. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/71 "2005-11-15T19:20:45Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > Not waiving your rights cannot be used as a presumption of guilt. If a jury used that as an excuse to find someone guilty the judge would be compelled to call a mistrial. Of course. But in future world, I am turning the concept of presumed innocence on its head because this drug would allow a quick exhoneration of innocent people. The presumption of innocence might then become a dinosaur since there would appear to be no sane reason to abstain. Be really honest with yourself. If this stuff really existed and really worked, you swear that you wouldn’t be more suspicious of a defendent who refused to take it? Sorry, I can honestly say that I would. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/72 "2005-11-15T19:27:36Z")
Why not have _1984_ style telescreens installed in all our houses as well. If you’re not guilty, what do you have to hide? The fact is, _we are all lawbreakers_. Every single last one of us. Or at least 99% of us. See that cop across the street? He’s a lawbreaker too. At some point in his life he broke a law. I guarantee it. Most of us have done things that if we had gotten caught may have landed us behind bars. Maybe he drank a beer when he was 20 years old and thus underage. Perhaps he had sex with his 17 year old girlfriend when he was 18. Whatever the case, all of us have something to hide about ourselves. The thought of a criminal justice system that catches every criminal, every time is downright scary to me. It will either result in everyone going to prison or in a drastic rewriting of the laws. Considering that the U.S already has a higher percentage of its citizenry behind bars than any other democracy out there, I fear the former is more likely than the latter. Remember, prisoners can’t vote. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/73 "2005-11-15T19:32:05Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Of course. But in future world, I am turning the concept of presumed innocence on its head because this drug would allow a quick exhoneration of innocent people. The presumption of innocence might then become a dinosaur since there would appear to be no sane reason to abstain. > > Be really honest with yourself. If this stuff really existed and really worked, you swear that you wouldn’t be more suspicious of a defendent who refused to take it? > > Sorry, I can honestly say that I would. And a racist may be more suspicious of a black man. Innocent people refuse to take polygraphs all of the time. They refuse searches. They remain silent and let their lawyer talk for them. As many people have already stated, “truth” is relative. SO that would make your syrum fallable because people consider truth different. > [@](#): > > I am turning the concept of presumed innocence on its head Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/74 "2005-11-15T19:33:36Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Why not have _1984_ style telescreens installed in all our houses as well. If you’re not guilty, what do you have to hide? > > The fact is, _we are all lawbreakers_. Every single last one of us. Or at least 99% of us. See that cop across the street? He’s a lawbreaker too. At some point in his life he broke a law. I guarantee it. Most of us have done things that if we had gotten caught may have landed us behind bars. Maybe he drank a beer when he was 20 years old and thus underage. Perhaps he had sex with his 17 year old girlfriend when he was 18. > > Whatever the case, all of us have something to hide about ourselves. The thought of a criminal justice system that catches every criminal, every time is downright scary to me. It will either result in everyone going to prison or in a drastic rewriting of the laws. Considering that the U.S already has a higher percentage of its citizenry behind bars than any other democracy out there, I fear the former is more likely than the latter. Remember, prisoners can’t vote. :eek: For the last time, because I never proposed nor would I propose a dragnet style use of this drug. It was crafted specifically for use in ascertaining the guilt or innocense of a suspect in one specific crime. Period! So, what a shock, you don’t want 1984 Big Brother. Neither do I, nor did I propose it. Your extrapolation into Orwell-ville is in your own mind; not my OP. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/75 "2005-11-15T19:34:40Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > And a racist may be more suspicious of a black man. Innocent people refuse to take polygraphs all of the time. They refuse searches. They remain silent and let their lawyer talk for them. As many people have already stated, “truth” is relative. SO that would make your syrum fallable because people consider truth different. > > Indeed. Yeah, they refuse because they don’t work reliably. I would too. Too bad that this whole thread has been about one that is perfect. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/76 "2005-11-15T19:45:53Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Ever hear of 'Burden of Proof"? The state has to prove their case. To me, using this serum is nothing more than throwing a witch into a lake to see if she floats or not. . But if floating or not was actually a parfect method to determine guiltiness, I’m sure there would still be swimming pools in every courtroom… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/77 "2005-11-15T19:46:07Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Ever hear of 'Burden of Proof"? The state has to prove their case. To me, using this serum is nothing more than throwing a witch into a lake to see if she floats or not. . But if floating or not was actually a perfect method to determine guiltiness, I’m sure there would still be swimming pools in every courtroom… ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/78 "2005-11-15T19:49:54Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > No, I am assuming innocence. Why force someone who is innocent to take a drug against his will? Why take away their rights to privacy, due process, and silence? > The law must assume innocence of the accused until proven guilty by due process. So, therefore, the state will only drug “innocent” people. Ummm, because someone has been murdered or raped or robbed and we want to find out who did it, and we want to do everything within our power to ensure that we punish the right person(s) for the deed(s) and a reliable truth sermon is something I’d have a LOT more faith in than our current system. Wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/79 "2005-11-15T19:52:03Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Yeah, they refuse because they don’t work reliably. I would too. Too bad that this whole thread has been about one that is perfect. And neither would your serum. You trust the police to ask the right questions and for the suspect to answer in the right way. That is impossible. The serum may perfectly compel you to say what you thought was the truth every time. Will it compel a police officer who was trying to railroad you to tell the truth? If you take away the presumption of innocence, even for the most horrible of crimes, you undermine the whole process. People have many reasons they would refuse. And it is none of your business, nor the states, why they would not waive their rights. ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148/80 "2005-11-15T19:56:16Z")
Am I reading this correctly? _Defendent takes drug_ Judge: “Did you do it?” Defendant: “Oh, no, your Honor, I didn’t, really.” Judge: “Very well, you’re free to go.” No matter how reliable the drug is, I don’t think popular opinion would allow an acquittal solely on that basis, especially if there’s evidence to support the conviction. And how does this differ from the current right to silence? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-real-truth-serum-created-should-the-5th-amendment-go-out-the-window/331148.md?page=5)