# If a song is mentioned in a movie, are Royalties owed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 2, 2007, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281 "2007-10-02T17:55:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![diggleblop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@diggleblop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/diggleblop)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/1 "2007-10-02T17:55:04Z")
Last night I was watching “The Weatherman” with Nicholas Cage and he mentioned a song and it’s author. They eventually played the song later in the movie, but my question is, if they didn’t play the song and only mentioned it, are royalties still owed to the catalog owner? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/2 "2007-10-02T18:28:38Z")
No. Mentioning is an absolute right and cannot compel royalties. Same goes for mentioning a song here on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Ferd\_Burfel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecccb3/32.png) [@Ferd\_Burfel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferd_Burfel)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/3 "2007-10-02T19:10:55Z")
How much of a song can you perform before royalties are due? Can you hum the 1st 2 bars for free? Can you quote part of the chorus? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/4 "2007-10-02T19:29:36Z")
[QUOTE=Ferd Burfel] How much of a song can you perform before royalties are due? Can you hum the 1st 2 bars for free? Can you quote part of the chorus? [/QUOTE] Along these lines – would the Led Zeppelin be owed royalties on the “No Stairway” skit in _Wayne’s World_? They played a few bars, didn’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/5 "2007-10-02T19:36:30Z")
[QUOTE=Ferd Burfel] How much of a song can you perform before royalties are due? Can you hum the 1st 2 bars for free? Can you quote part of the chorus? [/QUOTE] This would appear to be a variable. > [@](#): > > **Determining How Much To Charge For A Song**. > > When the call comes in from the music supervisor of a motion picture, there are a number of factors that must be considered in determining how much to charge for the inclusion of a song in a film, including: > > [ul]How the song is used (i.e. vocal performance by an actor on camera, instrumental background, vocal background)[/ul] > [ul]The overall budget for the film, as well as the music budget[/ul] > [ul]The type of film (i.e. major studio, independent, foreign, student, web)[/ul] > [ul]The stature of song being used (i.e. current hit, new song, famous standard, rock n’ roll classic)[/ul] > [ul]The duration of the use (i.e. one minute, four minutes, 10 seconds) and whether there are multiple uses of the song[/ul] > [ul]The term of the license (i.e. two years, 10 years, life of copyright, perpetual)[/ul] > [ul]The territory of the license (i.e. the world, the universe, specific foreign countries)[/ul] > [ul]Whether there is a guarantee that the song will be used on the film’s soundtrack album[/ul] > [ul]Whether the producer also wants to use the original hit recording of a song, rather than re-recording a new version for use in the film[/ul] > [ul]Whether the motion picture uses the song as its musical theme as well as its title[/ul] [Link](http://www.ascap.com/filmtv/movies-part1.html). ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/6 "2007-10-02T19:42:47Z")
[QUOTE=bordelond] Along these lines – would the Led Zeppelin be owed royalties on the “No Stairway” skit in _Wayne’s World_? They played a few bars, didn’t they? [/QUOTE] Wouldn’t that qualify as satire? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/7 "2007-10-02T20:10:38Z")
But you still have to pay royalties on satire. The Capitol Steps, which writes song parodies all the time, pay royalties for the songs they use. The issue with music is that the music without words is protected. So whatever words you use, you still have to pay royalties to use the music. As long as the song is recognizable, then royalties are owed, though the amount can be negotiated with the criteria **Chez Guevara** has outlined. If you can’t come to an agreement, then you can’t use the song. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/8 "2007-10-02T22:24:46Z")
[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat] Wouldn’t that qualify as satire? [/QUOTE] Most satires are “sound-alikes” which are written to sound like a song you know, but aren’t actually that song. If you use the actual original song, even if you change the lyrics, you have to pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2007, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/9 "2007-10-02T23:40:46Z")
[QUOTE=Ferd Burfel] How much of a song can you perform before royalties are due? Can you hum the 1st 2 bars for free? Can you quote part of the chorus? [/QUOTE] IIRC, in _The Big Chill_, when Kevin Kline’s character is about to charge up the stairs with a tennis racket to kill a bat, he sings the first musical notes of the theme from _Raider of the Lost Ark_- “dum da dum dum, dum da dum!” It was listed in the credits and I think they paid for it. ---
**Author:** ![\_bolding\_mine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/77aa72/32.png) [@\_bolding\_mine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_bolding_mine)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/10 "2007-10-03T00:01:49Z")
I’m often amazed to see all the music credits at the end of a movie. Sometimes they will list dozens of songs that could not possibly have made the final cut, since there wasn’t any sense of a sound track at all. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/11 "2007-10-03T00:11:39Z")
[QUOTE=friedo] Most satires are “sound-alikes” which are written to sound like a song you know, but aren’t actually that song. If you use the actual original song, even if you change the lyrics, you have to pay for it. [/QUOTE] Not so fast. This may be true of non-parody use, but its not true of parodies. The seminal Supreme Court case about Fair Use of music, Campbell v. Acuff Rose Music, cocerned 2 Live Crew’s sampling of the opening bars of Roy Orbison’s “Pretty Woman.” The Supreme Court found that satire was a use particularly protected by federal copyright law – because it was a form of commentary. 2 Live Crew did NOT owe for infringement even though they used the most recognizable part of the song. The Court correctly reasoned that if the songs used weren’t recognizable to the listener, it wouldn’t be much of a parody. (BTW, 2 Live Crew had requested the sample through the usual channels and had been refused; they went ahead anyway). Weird Al works with permission of artists, but he doesn’t have to. He chooses to do so because it is easier to stay on good terms with copyright holders than constantly defend lawsuits which he would always win. In [Al’s own words](http://www.weirdal.com/faq.htm) (3rd Q down). ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/12 "2007-10-03T01:22:13Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] But you still have to pay royalties on satire. [/QUOTE] I believe that’s incorrect, but **Hello Again** beat me to the details (and probably did a better job of it that I would have). ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/13 "2007-10-03T03:41:18Z")
> [@'\[bolding](#): > > ']I’m often amazed to see all the music credits at the end of a movie. > Sometimes they will list dozens of songs that could not possibly have made the final cut, since there wasn’t any sense of a sound track at all. Where, for example, could they possibly have used Leonard Cohen’s “Hallelujah” in _Shrek_? ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/14 "2007-10-03T13:25:09Z")
[QUOTE=matt\_mcl] Where, for example, could they possibly have used Leonard Cohen’s “Hallelujah” in _Shrek_? [/QUOTE] On the off-chance that I’m not being whooshed here: it was in fact used, although it was Rufus Wainwright’s cover of it. Fiona is preparing to get married to John Lithgow, and Shrek is back in his hovel in the swamp, and they’re all sad & wistful because they’re mad at each other but they still care about each and it’s not as eye-rolling as I’m making it sound, really. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/15 "2007-10-03T15:29:33Z")
[QUOTE=bordelond] Along these lines – would the Led Zeppelin be owed royalties on the “No Stairway” skit in _Wayne’s World_? They played a few bars, didn’t they? [/QUOTE] It might have been less than that. Unfortunately we’ll have to rely on somebody’s memory because it’s been replaced with generic heavy metal, thus ruining the joke. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2007, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/16 "2007-10-03T23:10:47Z")
[QUOTE=MikeS] On the off-chance that I’m not being whooshed here: it was in fact used, although it was Rufus Wainwright’s cover of it. Fiona is preparing to get married to John Lithgow, and Shrek is back in his hovel in the swamp, and they’re all sad & wistful because they’re mad at each other but they still care about each and it’s not as eye-rolling as I’m making it sound, really. [/QUOTE] No, you weren’t being whooshed. I assume that they weren’t using a majority, or even much at all, of the lyrics. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/17 "2007-10-04T02:46:13Z")
[QUOTE=matt\_mcl] No, you weren’t being whooshed. I assume that they weren’t using a majority, or even much at all, of the lyrics. [/QUOTE] At least two verses that I recall. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/18 "2007-10-04T11:21:00Z")
> [@](#): > > The territory of the license (i.e. the world, the universe, specific foreign countries) So some songs have extra-terrestrial rights? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/19 "2007-10-04T14:53:31Z")
Sometimes you’ve gotta beg. In the DVD extras for _School of Rock_, we see Jack Black, on stage and in front of a huge audience, imploring Led Zeppelin to - uncharacteristically for them - consent to have a Zep song on the soundtrack. The short filmed segment was sent to the band, which finally agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2007, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-song-is-mentioned-in-a-movie-are-royalties-owed/421281/20 "2007-10-04T15:25:43Z")
[QUOTE=Hello Again] Not so fast. This may be true of non-parody use, but its not true of parodies. The seminal Supreme Court case about Fair Use of music, Campbell v. Acuff Rose Music, cocerned 2 Live Crew’s sampling of the opening bars of Roy Orbison’s “Pretty Woman.” The Supreme Court found that satire was a use particularly protected by federal copyright law – because it was a form of commentary. 2 Live Crew did NOT owe for infringement even though they used the most recognizable part of the song. [/QUOTE] The Court also made clear that it wasn’t granting blanket fair use protection to all song parodies: > [@](#): > > The fact that parody can claim legitimacy for some appropriation does not, of course, tell either parodist or judge much about where to draw the line. **Like a book review quoting the copyrighted material criticized, parody may or may not be fair use, and petitioner’s suggestion that any parodic use is presumptively fair has no more justification in law or fact than the equally hopeful claim that any use for news reporting should be presumed fair** , see Harper & Row, 471 U.S., at 561 .\*\* The Act has no hint of an evidentiary preference for parodists over their victims\*\*, and no workable presumption for parody could take account of the fact that parody often shades into satire when society is lampooned through its creative artifacts, or that a work may contain both parodic and nonparodic elements. Accordingly, **parody, like any other use, has to work its way through the relevant factors, and be judged case by case, in light of the ends of the copyright law.** (Emphasis added). [http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=510&page=569](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=510&page=569) > [@](#): > > This is not, of course, to say that anyone who calls himself a parodist can skim the cream and get away scot free. In parody, as in news reporting, see Harper & Row, supra, context is everything, and the question of fairness asks what else the parodist did besides go to the heart of the original. It is significant that 2 Live Crew not only copied the first line of the original, but thereafter departed markedly from the Orbison lyrics for its own ends. 2 Live Crew not only copied the bass riff and repeated it, 19 but also produced otherwise distinctive sounds, interposing “scraper” noise, overlaying the music with solos in different keys, and altering the drum beat. See 754 F.Supp., at 1155. This is not a case, then, where “a substantial portion” of the parody itself is composed of a “verbatim” copying of the original. It is not, that is, a case where the parody is so insubstantial, as compared to the copying, that the third factor must be resolved as a matter of law against the parodists. > > Suffice it to say here that, as to the lyrics, we think the Court of Appeals correctly suggested that “no more was taken than necessary,” 972 F.2d, at 1438, but just for that reason, we fail to see how the copying can be excessive in relation to its parodic purpose, even if the portion taken is the original’s “heart.” As to the music, we express no opinion whether repetition of the bass riff is excessive copying, and we remand to permit evaluation of the amount taken, in light of the song’s parodic purpose and character, its transformative elements, and considerations of the potential for market substitution sketched more fully below. \*Id. \* and more generally: > [@](#): > > Congress meant 107 “to restate the present judicial doctrine of fair use, not to change, narrow, or enlarge it in any way” and intended that courts continue the common law tradition of fair use adjudication. H.R.Rep. No. 94-1476, p. 66 (1976) (hereinafter House Report); S.Rep. No. 94-473, p. 62 (1975) (hereinafter Senate Report). The fair use doctrine thus “permits [and requires] courts to avoid rigid application of the copyright statute when, on occasion, it would stifle the very creativity which that law is designed to foster.” Stewart v. Abend, 495 U.S. 207, 236 (1990) (internal quotation marks and citation omitted). > > **The task is not to be simplified with bright-line rules** , for the statute, like the doctrine it recognizes, calls for case-by-case analysis. Harper & Row, 471 U.S., at 560 ; Sony, 464 U.S., at 448 , and n. 31; House Report, pp. 65-66; Senate Report, p. 62. The text employs the terms “including” and “such as” in the preamble paragraph to indicate the “illustrative and not limitative” function of the examples given, 101; see Harper & Row, supra, at 561, which thus provide only general guidance about the sorts of copying that courts and Congress most commonly had found to be fair uses. 9 Nor may the four statutory factors be treated in isolation, one from another. All are to be explored, and the results weighed together, in light of the purposes of copyright. See Leval 1110-1111; Patry & Perlmutter, Fair Use Misconstrued: Profit, Presumptions, and Parody, 11 Cardozo Arts & Ent.L.J. 667, 685-687 (1993) (hereinafter Patry & Perlmutter). 10 _Id._