# If a white South African moved to the USA, would they become African-American?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [May 19, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194 "2016-05-19T23:24:04Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2016, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/21 "2016-05-20T14:25:24Z")
The guy is black, white or neither. He’s also South African. Wtf else do you need?
What is the rest of this shit in the 21st century.
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### Author:  [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2016, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/22 "2016-05-20T14:30:20Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#):
>
> But not on his Nigerian father’s side
Maybe a map to help you?
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/23 "2016-05-20T15:09:51Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#):
>
> What is the rest of this shit in the 21st century.
Well, imagine a white American who was born and raised in South Africa checks the box marked “African-American” when applying for a job, or to a college, or whatever, and affirmative action ensues. Has the law been obeyed? Has he committed fraud?
Yes, right here in the 21st century: is that legal, and should it be?
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/24 "2016-05-20T15:25:42Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> Well, imagine a white American who was born and raised in South Africa checks the box marked “African-American” when applying for a job, or to a college, or whatever, and affirmative action ensues. Has the law been obeyed? Has he committed fraud?
>
> Yes, right here in the 21st century: is that legal, and should it be?
The U.S. census currently has a category called “Black or African American,” defined as “A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa.” That covers the bases as far as white South Africans go, but “origins” is undefined, as is the amount of black ancestry required. I would imagine businesses or universities would employ similar definitions. However, in practice in the US “race” is generally regarded as self defined.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2016, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/25 "2016-05-20T16:13:25Z")
They’re not really considered Africans here (and historically they agreed with this, judging by their [own](http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/cd54e2cb89.JPG) [stupid](http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/sign-on-a-beach-in-port-elizabeth-south-africa-during-the-era-of-picture-id561479601) [classification](https://espressostalinist.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/europeans-only.jpg) [schemes](http://images.bidorbuy.co.za/user_images/921/1140921_111129133308_Picture_2101.jpg)), why would they magically become such when they go to America?
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### Author:  [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2016, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/26 "2016-05-20T17:04:07Z")
> [@Colibri](#):
>
> The U.S. census currently has a category called “Black or African American,” defined as “A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa.” That covers the bases as far as white South Africans go, but “origins” is undefined, as is the amount of black ancestry required. I would imagine businesses or universities would employ similar definitions. However, in practice in the US “race” is generally regarded as self defined.
Right, and both Barack Obama’s father as well as Colin Powell’s parents do, in fact, have origins in one or more of the Black racial groups of Africa.
The official definition _is_ somewhat arbitrary and also ambiguous, but it has to be. People in the USA don’t want an Apartheid-style racial and ethnic classification board with hairsplitting high-stakes classification decisions.
There’s also a conflict brewing over the fact that the US census defines “white” as “A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa”, which includes Arabs, Berbers, and other peoples who often do not “feel white” on the streets of the USA.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/27 "2016-05-20T18:27:27Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#):
>
> While they were in Africa they were euro Africans, If they came to the U.s. they would be Euro Americans.
I don’t know if I agree with this.
Isn’t there a cultural aspect to ethnic identity? If a week old baby from Australia, for example, was adopted by a Mexican couple and raised in a Mexican family in the middle of Mexico surrounded by Mexicans, wouldn’t this child grow up to be a Mexican for all essential purposes? The child, regardless of its birth, was raised in Mexican culture.
How can we say that a person who is born in Africa, grows up in Africa, and is from a family that has lived in Africa for generations is not an African?
If you say that a white person can never really be an African, are you also going to say that a black person can never really be a European?
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/28 "2016-05-20T18:30:57Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#):
>
> A bit of little known trivia: Barack Obama is descended from a slave in the USA. But not on his Nigerian father’s side. [His white mother had a slave ancestor.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/post/obama-descended-from-slave-ancestor-researchers-say/2012/07/30/gJQAUw4BLX_blog.html)
A nitpick that doesn’t affect your point, but the President’s father is Kenyan not Nigerian.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/29 "2016-05-20T20:32:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> How can we say that a person who is born in Africa, grows up in Africa, and is from a family that has lived in Africa for generations is not an African?
No more so than a Euro-descendant American has a right to call themselves “Native American”. IMO.
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### Author:  [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/30 "2016-05-20T20:43:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> No more so than a Euro-descendant American has a right to call themselves “Native American”. IMO.
But “African” is not equivalent to “Native American.”
And do you not find that white South Africans’ view of their identity, relative to Europe and Africa, has changed rather dramatically since apartheid days? I’ve only read or talked to a few on the subject, but none of them think of themselves _as_ “Europeans,” any more than Australians do.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/31 "2016-05-20T20:54:06Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#):
>
> But “African” is not equivalent to “Native American.”
IMO, it is.
> [@](#):
>
> And do you not find that white South Africans’ view of their identity, relative to Europe and Africa, has changed rather dramatically since apartheid days?
Not really, no.
> [@](#):
>
> I’ve only read or talked to a few on the subject, but none of them think of themselves _as_ “Europeans,” any more than Australians do.
White Australians aren’t a minority ethnicity in their own country. White South Africans are, and it shows in lots of little ways. Quite a lot of White South Africans I know have dual citizenship with either the UK or another European country, for instance.
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### Author:  [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/32 "2016-05-20T21:23:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> A nitpick that doesn’t affect your point, but the President’s father is Kenyan not Nigerian.
Ooops. Thanks.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/33 "2016-05-20T22:08:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> No more so than a Euro-descendant American has a right to call themselves “Native American”. IMO.
So you’re accepting the idea that somebody from Africa or Asia (or somebody whose ancestors were from Africa or Asia) can never become European or American or Australian?
I personally reject that idea. I feel that people can fully assimilate into their national culture even if their race is a minority in that culture.
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### Author:  [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2016, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/34 "2016-05-21T00:10:20Z")
I am a white South African, and I know quite a few white SAns who have moved to the US and now have green cards or US citizenship. None of them, as far as I know, describe themselves as “African-American”. I think it’s quite well-understood that it’s a term that refers to black people.
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> So you’re accepting the idea that somebody from Africa or Asia (or somebody whose ancestors were from Africa or Asia) can never become European or American or Australian?
>
> I personally reject that idea. I feel that people can fully assimilate into their national culture even if their race is a minority in that culture.
I don’t entirely agree with MrDibble’s characterisation of the word “African” as requiring indigeneity; I think it depends on the context. But I would have to admit that white South Africans haven’t really assimilated with the majority SA culture to any substantial degree.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> White Australians aren’t a minority ethnicity in their own country. White South Africans are, and it shows in lots of little ways. Quite a lot of White South Africans I know have dual citizenship with either the UK or another European country, for instance.
On that point - it’s anecdotal, but the dual citizens I know regard their EU citizenships as merely passports of convenience that make traveling easier. They don’t think of themselves as “British” or “Italian” or whatever. (Of course, they’re in their 20s, it might be different for older generations.) For Australians there isn’t as much of a reason to maintain dual citizenship since an Aussie passport has about as much “visa power” as an EU one.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2016, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/35 "2016-05-21T07:17:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> So you’re accepting the idea that somebody from Africa or Asia (or somebody whose ancestors were from Africa or Asia) can never become European or American or Australian?
No. They could very easily, by actually assimilating somewhat into indigenous cultures.
> [@](#):
>
> I personally reject that idea. I feel that people can fully assimilate into their national culture even if their race is a minority in that culture.
That’s not what most White South Africans have done.
For instance, a pitifully small percentage of White South Africans actually speak an African language (and no, Afrikaans is _not_ an African language).
> [@ctnguy](#):
>
> I don’t entirely agree with MrDibble’s characterisation of the word “African” as requiring indigeneity;
Not indigineity exactly, just ethnic assimilation.
For instance, in my view, Coloureds don’t really count as African, either - except those Coloureds in the late 1700s-early 1800s who, despite European and Asian origins, assimilated into the Khoisan Griqua tribes. Even though their native language had died out, I still consider _them_ African.
> [@](#):
>
> On that point - it’s anecdotal, but the dual citizens I know regard their EU citizenships as merely passports of convenience that make traveling easier. They don’t think of themselves as “British” or “Italian” or whatever. (Of course, they’re in their 20s, it might be different for older generations.) For Australians there isn’t as much of a reason to maintain dual citizenship since an Aussie passport has about as much “visa power” as an EU one.
That’s not really my experience -
Most of the European ones I know consider themselves more European than South African (Have you ever been to the German, Italian or Portuguese Clubs?) - _especially_ the Germans (and I have several good German friends). With the Brits, it’s probably a minority that do consider themselves British, not South African, like you say. But culturally, they remain largely Anglocentric.
Ironically, it’s the Afrikaners who are most localized, but I wouldn’t call their culture “African” anymore than I’d call American culture “Native American” or mainstream Australian culture “Aboriginal”
My point is, colonial cultures shouldn’t get the nicety of assigning them names that legitimize their hegemony over the land without question. Unfortunately, that ship has sailed in the name “American” for mainstream American Anglo culture, or "Australian culture, because of the near-complete overlay over native cultures. But here, that hasn’t happened, so when I say “African”, you can read a silent “Native” in front…
Note that this isn’t a value judgement on those cultures - I actively _despise_ a lot of elements of the African cultures, and am very Eurocentric myself.
Nor do I consider those Non-“Native African” cultures to be non-“Authentically South African” in the slightest. Far from it, and possibly a little bit the opposite. There’s nothing more authentically South African than being a melting pot of culture, IMO.
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### Author:  [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2016, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/36 "2016-05-21T12:15:18Z")
The original question has been answered, but I just wanted to comment on the suggestion that White South Africans are “European” and the laughable suggestion that Afrikaans is “not an African language”.
Base on the WSA I know, they are about as “European” as you are French.
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### Author:  [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2016, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/37 "2016-05-21T12:57:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Ironically, it’s the Afrikaners who are most localized, but I wouldn’t call their culture “African” anymore than I’d call American culture “Native American” or mainstream Australian culture “Aboriginal”
>
> My point is, colonial cultures shouldn’t get the nicety of assigning them names that legitimize their hegemony over the land without question. Unfortunately, that ship has sailed in the name “American” for mainstream American Anglo culture, or "Australian culture, because of the near-complete overlay over native cultures. But here, that hasn’t happened, so when I say “African”, you can read a silent “Native” in front…
>
> Note that this isn’t a value judgement on those cultures - I actively _despise_ a lot of elements of the African cultures, and am very Eurocentric myself.
>
> Nor do I consider those Non-“Native African” cultures to be non-“Authentically South African” in the slightest. Far from it, and possibly a little bit the opposite. There’s nothing more authentically South African than being a melting pot of culture, IMO.
OK, I understand where you are coming from, but I would assign terms differently. To me, because “authentic South African” culture was created in and exists nowhere but Africa, it is ipso facto an “African” culture, its members Africans. Just as “African-American,” or black American culture is an “American” culture, its members Americans.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/38 "2016-05-21T13:09:37Z")
> [@Melbourne](#):
>
> The original question has been answered, but I just wanted to comment on the suggestion that White South Africans are “European” and the laughable suggestion that Afrikaans is “not an African language”.
Is the Australian dialect of English an Indigenous Australian language?
> [@](#):
>
> Base on the WSA I know, they are about as “European” as you are French.
_Mais oui_, how did you know?
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2016, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/39 "2016-05-21T13:12:57Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#):
>
> OK, I understand where you are coming from, but I would assign terms differently.
Fair enough
> [@](#):
>
> To me, because “authentic South African” culture was created in and exists nowhere but Africa, it is ipso facto an “African” culture, its members Africans.
Even if the originators of that culture maintained an African/European dichotomy _themselves_?
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### Author:  [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)
#### Post date: [May 21, 2016, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-a-white-south-african-moved-to-the-usa-would-they-become-african-american/755194/40 "2016-05-21T13:46:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Fair enoughEven if the originators of that culture maintained an African/European dichotomy _themselves_?
It is this that is important I think.
I recall maybe once you even asserted you saw the arab in north africa in this fashion, which from our perspective is weird and silly, but then we do not have this divide.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> They’re not really considered Africans here (and historically they agreed with this, judging by their [own](http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/cd54e2cb89.JPG) [stupid](http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/sign-on-a-beach-in-port-elizabeth-south-africa-during-the-era-of-picture-id561479601) [classification](https://espressostalinist.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/europeans-only.jpg) [schemes](http://images.bidorbuy.co.za/user_images/921/1140921_111129133308_Picture_2101.jpg)), …?
But I see in the Afrikaans they do not use European. They say Blankes, I would guess the exact translation is Europesches, yes?
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